Evaluating Men For Alliances & Marriage Series #10: A Male Chauvinist Pig By Any Other Name Still Oinks!

There’s Nothing Casual About Casual Sex

True story. When I was in my early twenties I ran into a former HS classmate. We went on a few dates and while I appreciated his attention, I’d only allow him a kiss at the door. I wasn’t “sold” on him. That previous shared experience lent a false sense of familiarity where loose ties existed.

He wanted to speed up the pace for our intimacy so he told me he wanted to be my boyfriend.. My first thoughts were, “Why does he want to jump into this so soon? We barely know each other.” I talked myself out of what was a practical response and took him at his word. Because why would a guy lie to a woman? While my own hormones were jumping, my head put up a lot of speed bumps that derailed his express ticket to Loverville.

I was clueless at recognizing his interest had already waned when he figured out there wasn’t going to be any nooky. I got the message after not hearing from him for nearly two weeks – which was slightly more than the total amount of time we had previously spent together. I went from being a confident young woman who felt fully in charge of herself and liked the possibilities with a potential guy to a sullen, insecure woman who began doubting herself. All because I’d believed what he’d said and let it change my expectations.

I had been dumped. Rudely and unceremoniously, but I wanted him to own up to it. He told me, “I thought you knew we broke up.” Er, when would I have known that? Oh, he didn’t want things to get “awkward”, so he just decided to avoid dump and run. I wished I could have run him over a few times with a truck. I thought I was sharing my hopes and dreams with a man who cared, not an immature &*^%$.

He screened himself right on out the door, but it was still a painful example of the ways men coerce or encourage women to work against their best interests in relationships. I don’t understand how another person could treat someone so poorly. Live and learn!

  • Dangling the carrot of couple-dom aka “connecting intimately” is the new modern warfare between the sexes.

Women need to understand the true nature of men and act accordingly in protecting themselves.

You cannot rely on benevolence, social conditioning, having a conscience, exceptions to the rule or his having a sense of fairness to kick in. That’s across the board for anyone in any situation. We get so easily tripped up when it comes to matters of the heart where our libidos collide with common sense.

I decided to write about this because I read a guest post at Alee’s blog about what males think about casual sex. A few sentences in and I was already peeved for all the reasons I wrote about above. I could see this anthropologist poser a mile away. This Zek guy thinks he’s some Zen Relationship Expert when he’s just a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

Please read the post – but not the comments – and come back where we can continue the conversation.

I had to pull some choice quotes from our boy Zek (in periwinkle). Notice the trend?

This might be surprising to the ladies reading, but many guys are like me and don’t just want a bunch of random sex, especially when it’s the woman doing the dumping afterwards.

I still shudder at the memory of one particularly horrible experience. A girl actually kicked me out of her bed at 4 AM because she was too drunk to do anything else and she had to get up for work early. I sarcastically call this my half-night stand.

Just like women, men experience a period of increasing emotional attachment after sex. But unlike women, men don’t typically ask to cuddle afterwards. Instead they try to turn the girl into a wifey. Most guys see sex as a physical manifestation of attraction – they like you so they want to have sex with you. For myself, if a woman didn’t even kiss me after the first date, I tended to be suspicious of her interest in me. And the depressingly ironic thing is when a woman likes a guy, she is more likely to wait to do anything physical! For fear of messing things up! To me, this is the height of foolishness. Ultimately, for men, sex is about closeness. So to the women, when a guy wants to have sex with you, before you kick him to the curb or make him wait it out another couple of weeks, perhaps you should ask yourself if he just wants to be closer to you.

After laughing for a good five minutes at his diatribe – for which he deserves an Oscar for sure I knew I had to call him out – publicly.

This guy is a hipster misogynist.

And full of it!

I’m not taking advice from a 20-something know it all. We could certainly say he’s basking in the ignorance of his youth, but he adds far too much hubris to be given a pass. When I read this post I was seething, because I saw the harm validating his opinion as being even remotely appropriate would negatively impact some unsuspecting women.

I call BULL CRAP!

From reading the responses a lot of those women are truly clueless about how to screen men. I mean wouldn’t a guy who’s a stranger claiming to want an “emotional” tie with you seem rather odd? It’s stalkerish in fact. His sense of entitlement at having access to any woman’s body is exactly the same as the male counterparts he thinks he’s so far above. If you read his replies he makes a lot of sweeping generalities and assumptions.

Just because he’s clueless willfully ignorant about his inherent nature doesn’t mean any woman who dates him should be. In fact, I’d advise them to be very careful with this one. I learned from reading the thread he’s in a relationship and claims to be in love. Let’s revisit them in a year and see what happened.

Guys like that are manipulative and have unrealistic expectations about relationships. The thing that got me riled up in particular was how he so easily called into question a woman’s right to choose…to say NO. You don’t get an explanation buddy! No means no. The end. Marry a guy like that and let him dominate things and your marriage will be a disaster. He’d take any knowledge he’d acquired about your weaknesses and insecurities to use against you to keep the upper hand.

If they’re not being passive-aggressive and petty, then these Man-Children are outright physically and emotionally abusive. A guy like that would be the type to sue you for alimony and go after full custody of any kids you have out of spite and to stay in control.

His assumption that he was entitled to “emotionally” connect through sex is the SAME behavior exemplified by the old HS classmate of mine who used the word “boyfriend” as an emotional trigger to get me to comply with his desire for access to quick and easy sex. There’s a lot of latent open contempt for women that underlies this behavior and it hasn’t changed in the decade since my experience occurred.

For reference read the post 1254 Men Follow The Female Lead at What Women Never Hear.

Men get their way by not bending in disputes with women. They push women around in thought, action, or both.

Our foremothers learned to exploit No Sex without Marriage. Never perfect or universal, the strategy still enabled conscientious females to dominate the domestic environment and make both society and culture more female- and family-friendly. It reduced the excesses of patriarchy. It pressured males to be more civilized and domestically responsible.

In the name of sexual freedom, modern females give up that societal influence.

DARK[ER] SIDE OF PATRIARCHY

Thus, the only caveat I will offer aside from throwing those losers back is that their behavior has been exasperated because of other women. It’s our fault — well those feminist pioneers who had a dogmatic approach about how to relate to men — and we seldom questioned it! We’ve created these monsters. When women let men set the scope and pace in these matters it is almost always guaranteed to be a mess. Even if you become a couple. The guy may likely have a perpetual roving eye. Cheating on you is a major possibility. You’d have to drag the guy kicking and screaming to the altar – IF you could convince him to marry you at all. Even if you do, after your entire convoluted history of relationship imbalance how fulfilling is that union going to be?

He was never devoted to you. He never had to be. Showing up and making the random gestures of commitment is all you’re going to get because you didn’t follow your instincts and you didn’t vet the guy properly from the beginning. You didn’t set boundaries and teach him how to treat you well. You all did what felt “natural” on somebody else’s timetable. Anything Goes, so kiss a stable, consistent relationship goodbye.

I was so grateful to see the two readers Rob and Bunny77 with the life experience and understanding of human behavior chime in.

Rob – who also saw through the facade early on nailed it perfectly.

It pretty much occurs to me as basic biology … mating behavior starts to make a lot of sense once one assume that humans are doing whatever they think they need to do to get their DNA into the next generation of people … there are countless books available..that decode human sexual behavior and explain where all the double standards come from, why they exist, and why they persist long after the source of the double standards don’t apply any more.

The Madonna/Whore thing occurs to me as very real … this blatant double standard is all over our culture … on the cover of so many magazines … in all of our subconscious minds. I’ve long ago accepted that my standards are pretty deeply ingrained … both sets …. they defy any logic … and they seem to stand the test of time. So when I hear the ‘exception” speaking up, like you did … I sort of shrug and say “whatever”. For the most part, men gravitate towards casual sex like moths to flames. Such is why the world’s oldest profession remains so to this day.

The Myth Of The Sexually Liberated Woman As “Empowered”

withholding of sex as a means to snatching a particular man in a society with pretty open access to birth control and contraceptives seems kinda demeaning, if not downright lame.” — Zek [again]

Many men don’t even try to hold any pretense of being a gentleman today. They’ll tell you they’re sexing numerous women, are in a non-relationship, still married, in between women, not interested in anything “serious” or whatever they’re calling it today. I call it Wham Bam Thank You Ma’am. Only they’re often lazy and slovenly and it isn’t even worth your time – or the risk to your mental and physical health.

I think if a woman pays attention she can quickly discover the way a man thinks through a simple conversation.

The way Zek peppers his language with the use of wifey and players leads me to think he’s hanging around certain types of males that are unsuitable for marriage. Then again, it is a post about his justification of casual sex.

Bunny77 offered good advice to women

I cannot quite understand the expectation that women should just get naked and intimate with random dudes they barely know just because they are starting to develop interest in them. I mean, THAT is what I consider lame thinking… like, really? How mature is that? I like you, so let’s just go have sex?

...waiting is a freakin’ brilliant choice for most women, and I dare say that more women would probably be able to navigate the dating and relationship minefield a million times better if they left sex out of the equation for a longer period of time. Women have honestly lost a lot of old school wisdom that worked in their favor for the sake of being supposedly liberated.

People have tried with varying degrees of success to fight their nature.

Let’s just say that I know more than a few women who were downright shocked when that open-minded, liberal guy they were dating briefly suddenly became Mr. Caveman after they had sex… and before anyone says, “That’s good, you can dump him,” I say that it’s not so great if that woman bought into what he was selling, only to find out that he was full of it… maybe Zek wouldn’t have been that type of guy, but I wouldn’t advise a woman to take her chances on finding a Zek among the crowd.

I agreed with most of what Bunny77 replied except her projection about how women should not be obligated to take a man’s respect into consideration. It is in their best interest to look out for themselves first!

DON’T GIVE AWAY YOUR POWER

  • Is finding a “Zek” the best thing for a woman?  NO!!

Because to me that seems to reduce male-female interactions into a power struggle.  — another gem from our Zen expert

What he means is male control would take over (go back to the WWNH post) except for women’s successful c*ck-blocking plans in effect. Zek thinks he’s strutting down the street like it’s Saturday Night Fever not realizing he typifies the term of that era: Male Chauvinist Pig. Don’t you understand that men have simply adopted catch phrases and have learned how to say things that sound good to women? What women want to hear. The key is women need to know the difference between the reality of the things they don’t hear and TEST men. Rob offered crucial advice and since he identified himself as being over 50 I would certainly listen!

As far as I know not one person answered Bunny 77’s question. She asked “how many of the men who encourage a more organic approach to sexuality for women will eventually advise their daughters in this manner?”

I won’t call him a Caveman because they knew what their role was and carried it out. You know who Zek is like?

John Mayer. Sexual Napalm indeed.

Caution

If younger women REALLY knew how men are they wouldn’t be so quick to think people are trying to “slut-shame”or deny them their right to be used. — Faith

That story he told about the aborted one night stand was very telling. This woman he’d picked up was drunk as a skunk. It was 4am and I guess she had sobered up enough at this point to realize she had brought home a stranger who was in her apartment and in her bed and wanted to no part of it. Common sense overruled the “you can have sex like a man mantra” that’s damaging women.

Just because you can doesn’t mean you should. So she made him leave. The way he gripes about it like he’s the victim makes me wonder if he tried to coerce her to change her mind by wearing her down. “You don’t have to do anything. Just let me put it in for a few minutes.” Forget her pleasure, relaxation or satisfaction. -– yeah I went there!

These situations are volatile because this is where some women would feel disempowered to refuse sex because they had put it on the table but they were too impaired to have made a sound judgment to begin with. No woman should be obligated to have sex when she isn’t 1000% certain she wants to. Woman = Over 18 and maybe 21! This is where women are raped if the guy decides to force he after she withdraws consent because she was a “tease”.

The reader who wrote women should test men by having sex with them first and later claimed she was joking has a lot of obvious disdain for other women. Her exchange with Rob in demanding links and wanting to argue semantics with him was very telling. She’s clueless, but isn’t willing to learn anything either.

And for the love of…can we stop misusing and misapplying the term “slut-shaming” when discussing women and sex? There are nuances that must always be considered but what occurs with one group of women doesn’t apply for all. Besides, some of the pushback has to do with rebalancing chaos. The non-PC way!!!

Men Are Not A Rubik’s Cube

Here’s what you need to understand about men:

They want to have sex with as many women as possible no strings attached. The end. Even the “nice” ones.

Especially the “nice” ones.

I was glad someone else had mentioned how going out on a few dates added up to a negligible amount of time to really know someone. How much is enough time? Five hours? Ten? Twenty? If companies are screening job applicants for weeks don’t you think you should put at least that much time into some guy you’re going to allow to enter your life and your body?

If you don’t think men hold women in contempt shall we revisit the stats for the poor social conditions of black women in this country – 75% out of wedlock and never married. Sounds like quite a few guys decided to hit it and quit it without nary a second thought.

Then there’s the Huffpo article that gave me heartburn reading it, but Tracy McMillan’s Why You’re Not Married describes the way certain men view certain women [hence the disrespect and entitlement] and nails the behavior of those women (promiscuous, liars, selfish) for a reason. It was a dose of cold water for sure, but sometimes we need it.

The Thing About Choice Is You Have It, So Use It…Wisely

I’m not here to tell you what to do. If you want to explore your sexuality you are free to do so. Be aware of all the potential benefits and pitfalls. If every woman found her match or exception the first time around we wouldn’t even be having this conversation!

Most women can’t get the same satisfaction men do from mere release because they need to feel emotionally connected to the man in question. How can you do that when you just picked him up in a bar at 1230am? The Samantha character on SATC may have been written as a woman, but her behavior was typical for a man. Perhaps even a gay man. If you’ve watched previous seasons of Millionaire Matchmaker Patti Stanger always has an aggressive, wealthy woman on – whom she always complains about being hard to match – and describes them as having masculine energy. Men don’t like women who try to dominate them. Sure, they’ll take whatever’s on the menu, but they’re not sticking around.

Common-Sense

Let me ask you ladies a question:

If all other forms of birth control were removed (pill, etc) and you had to rely solely on condomsand the guy how would that change your behavior if at all?

  • Might you start screening men a lot more intensely?
  • Might you slow the pace of your relationships?
  • Would you still look for Mr. Goodbar?

Maybe you should already be doing this regardless of whether you’re using birth control or not. Just a thought.

Oh and Zek’s declarations about condoms being 99% effective got another eye roll. Dude, it’s the correct use of condoms that count. Some men, er want to use the wrong size. As Bunny77 pointed out there are STIs that can still be transmitted. Herpes being one. The gift that keeps on giving for life! I know all this talk about consequences for your actions and the darker side of sexual “freedom” makes people squirm. Then you shouldn’t be having sex. Yet, we know many people don’t follow correct protocols – even doctors!

WHAT HAPPENED TO GOOD OLD-FASHIONED COURTSHIP?

How many men are actually glad when a woman insists they both have all the necessary testing done ahead of time before their first sex together without it calling into question what they now view as confirmation of her promiscuity? Of course there are no such precautions in place if this same couple hooked up immediately. Yet, one is supposed to represent sexual freedom while the other is…less desirable? Double standards much?

How many younger men do you know who’ve actually gone to a urologist (male gyno) by choice as a preventative measure? You know to be responsible.

I know my number: ZERO!

How many men even know what a urologist is? About as many men who understand female anatomy?

Men will complain about one little cotton swab insert when women have to endure the stirrups of hell! It’s a necessary health precaution, but I have yet to meet any woman who’s happy about the speculum portion of an exam. Which you get to repeat each and every time you take on a new sex partner because you have to be re-screened. Or else.

You do not want to wait until you think there could possibly be something off because you might find out you had some low grade microbe that has now rendered you infertile. You may spend a big chunk of your early years experimenting, having fun and being glad you didn’t have to deal with any “accidents” only to find your uterus has sustained mortal internal damage.

Ah, the price of freedom. Sometimes it isn’t worth it.

If the Zeks of the world fashion themselves above it all, they are only fooling themselves. Don’t let them make a fool of you. Oh and he got an extra eye roll at his declarations that residents of San Francisco are somehow more aware and responsible because of AIDS. I lived there for a decade and can attest that is soooo not true!!!

Not to mention that he’s missing the point, lots of people died based on the choices they’d made, thus they had to accept their behavior directly corresponded to whether they lived or died. They changed their behavior!

Culture doesn’t trump biology as part of our inherent drives, but women can mold society to make it more women-and kid-compatible IF they set the pace and boundaries. Like those gay men who got politically active {ACT-UP} and confronted their peers, LGBTs also have decided as a group to mold society into something more family-oriented which is why SAME SEX MARRIAGE is being fought for so intensely. Hetero women already have that right – so use it!

If you’ve made it through the end of the post I applaud you because it was extensive, but necessary. I’m leaving this one up for the week because I’m exhausted there is much to marinate on here. Before I sign off, I’d like to share one more thing. I had the radio on and this “Rock Your Body” song by Justin Timberlake was played. If there was ever a song that exemplifies this attitude of male disrespect disguised as promoting women’s freedom this is it!

If you will note the lyrics then you it becomes easier to see why he gets the Timberfake or Timbersnake moniker as well. This is a very clever but obvious song using a lot of metaphor. The guy wants sex, the girl is deciding [to fool herself about] whether his interest goes beyond sex.

Don’t Be So Quick To Walk Away

Wanna Rock Your Body ‘Til The Break Of Day

You Don’t Have To Admit You Wanna Play

Just Let Me Rock You…

Ah, such words of eloquence! Such wooing involved. Not! Then the kicker where he reveals his true intentions-

Better Have You Naked By The End Of This Song

 

Youthful exuberance, hubris or the A**hole flag being waved enthusiastically?

The bridge has the female singer asking if Love Is Here On the Floor?

Since the song is about him rocking you, I think it’s safe to say ala Tina Turner LOVE has nothing to do with it!

How has acting like men benefited women when it comes to relationships?

Update June 21st:

I’m adding the Cosby Show episode, Just Thinking About It as indicated in the comments section by a very astute reader. In this 2-parter Pam is being pressured by her boyfriend to have sex where he threatens to go out with another girl if she refuses him, but she asserts female dominance in the end — and DUMPS him!

 

********

I hope you’ve enjoyed the latest installment of the Evaluating Men For Alliances & Marriage Series. Feel free to check out the previous entries.

Vol 9.

Vol 8.

Vol 1-7.

52 comments to Evaluating Men For Alliances & Marriage Series #10: A Male Chauvinist Pig By Any Other Name Still Oinks!

  • You are precisely correct on this blog post!!!

  • sisterlocgirl

    I am forever thankful that I was raised by an " old school " mom who laid out the facts of life in very concrete, clear terms. The bottom line that each and every woman must consider when engaging in sexual behavior is " What will I do if I become pregnant ?" and " What will I do if I become HIV positive ( or fill in any other STDs that can alter your life )?" As my mother still tells me to this day " There's nothing new under the sun ". The only difference now is too many women want to ignore biology and believe that we can behave as men when it comes to sexual issues. Newsflash. . . MEN DON'T GET PREGNANT. Couple this reality with the diminishing economy and answer this. . .are you REALLY prepared to stake your existence and the future of you and your child on some idiot who wants to hit it and quit it?
    Faith you are providing the voice of old school common sense which is SORELY lacking for today's young women. Ladies, no one has a right to use your body for sexual pleasure and discard you like used toliet paper. I don't care how that particularly foul, odious message is packaged it still stinks to high heaven. That Zek individual will spew whatever foolishness will allow him to meet his needs with no consideration of the consequences. DBR is DBR comes in many shapes and forms. I'm a little late to this discussion but boy the overwhelming attitude that something is wrong with self preservation is extremely disturbing to me ( referring to the linked post and some of the comments ). When my husband tells me something that makes me spitting mad I quickly sit down and shut up because he's hit the mark or pretty darn close to it. The truth is uncomfortable, but that doesn't make it any less true. If any of you ladies have the privilege of knowing some savvy older ladies, I would aim for 60-65 and above sit down with them and ask them about dating/vetting/screening men. Premarital sex isn't new, and no everyone wasn't waiting for marriage back in the day. A greater number of them understood the mating/dating game much more clearly than most women today.

  • Very weird. It seems that both you and Zek are stuck on stereotypical gender roles of what constitues male sexuality and female sexuality. There's no discussion of GLBT people. I agree with Alee. There's good and bad in all kinds and certainly in both sexes.

    • Faith

      I find it interesting how you selfishly and automatically expect a convo related to hetero couplings should be targeting lgtbs. Your failure to even acknowledge the harmful impact of casual sex for women tells a lot about YOU! I have no tolerance for Marie Antoinettes who'd sit by watching others falter. By the way, you [un]concerned troll should be aware I have spent countless hours and posts discussing lgbt related content. They have been actively promoting marriage for everyone. As have I. Since you don't read for comprehension, nor have you offered anything substantive here with your idiotic drive-by comment, go away now. I did link to the Gay Marriage bill passing in New York, but you didn't READ anything here!

      • Zoopath

        I haven’t seen the “you didn’t talk about xyz’s issues so you’re not allowed to discuss your own betterment” argument for a few months. It’s stil alive, well and obvious.

  • LaughingEyes

    faith, i will have you know that for many young girls, it gets confusing, and frustrating!!! we benefit tremendously from voices such as yours, so please dont stop talking.i, for one, am listening. for every woman (and other responsible men) that have made an appeal to the feminine side of every young woman to hold herself up to ideals that seem-on the surface-to have been overran by time, there are countless others (untrained boys & self serving men and unwise women & misguided girls) who are shouting as loud as they can for renouncing of those ideals by camouflaging their message as that of compromise.in any event, if i have remembered anything worth knowing in my young life, it is this: modesty is a feminine virtue and society (especially women and children) will be better for it if we embrace it and restore it to its rightful place. in good time, male honour will also be revived.

    for all the young girls who read this, are struggling and are getting conflicting advise, listen to yourself: you already know the answer. come from a place of knowing. all truth is self evident. i have gone through the WWNH website and shared it will as many girlfriends because it is a jewel. one book in particular, that the author of that site recommends is A Return to Modesty: Discovering the Lost Virtue by Wendy Shalit.i also recommend this book and gift it at every opportunity.

    sometimes im discouraged because especially in the university campus environment, a well bred gentleman (choice of attire, mannerisms etc) is a rare species- . but then i quickly remember that i have tried that other scene and it was not for me- i dont have any other option!!!

    • Faith

      Laughing Eyes: Thank you for taking the time to comment and offer your insights on the post. I am very glad to hear you've managed to "get a clue" as early as possible so you can properly screen men and set standards for yourself and for others in how they treat you. Men of quality do stand out like sparkly, shiny unicorns don't they? It's certainly something I've managed to pick up on, though there were times I've allowed the noise machine from the "modern" society brigade cloud my judgement and eschew certain values I knew to be correct all along. It's so much better to err on the side of caution, using wisdom while still being open of course to experience the best that life has to offer. I certainly believe we can all have that and as I've stated, I believe women DESERVE it.

  • Neecy

    OH DEAR FAITH!!! Phew the insanity of that blog post was too funny. And rather worse the immaturity and entitlement of the actual writer to think all women were just supposed to buy into that drivel of his and not challenge him.

    The part that made me choke with laughter and smh in pity at the girl/woman that buys into that mess was:
    “But unlike women, men don’t typically ask to cuddle afterwards. Instead they try to turn the girl into a wifey – the woman they plan to be with for life. The guy thinks, “That was some hot sh*t. I need to keep this girl around!”

    i have no words for that nonsense

    • Faith

      Hey Neecy: I read your exchange with that DBR "hipster misogynist" Zek at the other forum. He has a LOT of nerve, doesn't he? And his willfully obstinate girlfriend (of the moment) cheering him on. She'll find out soon enough. I am particularly troubled by males like that as a whole, but in particular the ones who are suddenly gravitating to online forums where there are numerous black women participating. The use of "wifey" did not escape my notice either. I tried to be diplomatic about in the post, but let me state it plainly here: Zek sounds as if he's hanging around DBR black males. Who else but a degenerate would create such a term to justice their dysfunction? Wifey — a woman who gives the male ALL of the benefits of a WIFE but whom he doesn't respect enough to MARRY and legally make his partner with all benefits and protections. What kind of MESS is that!!?

      • Neecy

        faith,

        I noticed his various 'slang" terms used that typical DBR BM use. He's a phony. And I feel sorry for that g/f of his. Did you see his comment about how she "supposedly" said the BWE women were all "angry" lol. Typical. What self respecting woman would be with an admitted male "ho" who believs in casual sex? Does she honestly believe she is in a sexually monogamous relationship with a entitled loser like him? UGH to the both of them.

        Yes I find it particularly disturbing males like him make their way on to forums where many BW are. you have a lot of insecure BW who will buy into that garbage. We have to keep speaking up.

        • Faith

          She probably doesn’t view him as a male whore, which speaks volumes about HER standards and why they are together. Same (low) values and intentional ignorance. For a male to be that transparent, that indiscreet and that PROUD of it also speak about the values he was raised with. I’d love to know if he talks that mess to his parents or grandparents or has he just decided to grace us with his poison. You never know — this is why women must VET FAMILIES AND FRIENDS also!!! I don't feel sorry for the girlfriend in the least. She's just another black-woman-hating black woman. She was over here making demands of MY TIME and salvage efforts related to BWE work and a few weeks ago. How many of these women in IRRs try to misdirect other black women to hold out for the "brotha"? She was talking some nonsense about how I needed to hand-hold random BW new to the BWE message. I see she’s trotted off since. I really hate insincere people who have no intention of changing and are trying to bleed others dry. I daresay most black women engage in some form of crabs in a barrel activity. Zek was rather obvious to me at hello. The sad thing is how many women don't get it, but after all the efforts that have gone into trying to educate them, they don't appreciate it or value it and won't change. So be it. This is across the board with all of the issues that negatively impact black women in particular who choose to be obstinate and obstructionists. I wish I could muster up a second for surprise or outrage but after four years of blogging, I've seen certain patterns repeating themselves and I. Am. Done. My military tour of leading the Black Woman Underground Railroad Out Of The DBR Matrix is ending. I will focus on those women who are interested in LIVING, not DEATH STYLES of the permanently clueless.

        • Alee

          @Neecy and Faith,

          Why bring Zek's girlfriend into this discussion? Zek's past is his past. I do believe they are in a monogamous relationship, and I know them a little better than other people online. I don't think she agrees with "whorish" behavior, and I remember her stating as much in the beginning of the comments section of the post.

          Re: his comment about her stance on BWE bloggers… I mean, that's her opinion. I don't think all BWE bloggers are angry, but I plan on writing an article about a related topic in the next month or so. So maybe she/you/others will want to chime in them.

          @Faith,

          Jasmin was at this blog before? I don't remember that.

          • Neecy

            Alee,

            His g/f allowed herself into the convo when she said that BWE women were all "angry". maybe she should have stayed out of it or pointed to specific people and not blamed all BWE women as being angry. That is why I made a comment to him (that you deleted) and so i came here and posted how I felt. I get really pissed off when people try to blame all BWE bloggers about being mean and angry just b/c we hold unpopular views by many clueless BW or thier partners.

            BWE bloggers have NOTHING to do with this. he notrhis GIRLFRIEND had any right putting all BWE bloggers / or their audience in a basket b/c a couple of us disagreed with his post.

          • Faith

            Let's stay focused on the post.

          • Faith

            Why are you more invested in these people than the message?

  • APA

    I've never been into the hook up scene, and for a while my lack of sexual experience embarrassed me because it seemed everyone that I knew was having casual sex. Everyone had tons of stories to tell about their escapades, and I could never join in the conversation. in addition, if you're not hooking up, having casual sex, or are still a virgin, your peers tend to treat you like you're overly naive and innocent because you're not as sexually experienced as them. Never mind that you're achieving other personal, educational, or professional goals that they've yet to reach.

    However, one day my friends, some other girls, and I were talking about past "relationships," and it was my turn to share a story. I sheepishly admitted that I didn't have much experience in that department and had only been on a couple of dates. One of the girls mentioned that the fact that I had been on actual, real dates where the guy takes you out, pays for dinner, etc was pretty good because despite the fact that she had hooked up with numerous guys she had never been on a real date. All the girls that were there admitted that they had never been on real dates. That's the point where I started feeling more comfortable with my decision to only have sex in a monogamous, long-term relationship because casual sex wouldn't give me the type of attention or relationship that I wanted. Now, I have no problem telling folks that I only have sex in long-term relationships.

    However, I respect the choice any woman makes regarding her sexuality. Every woman should decide what works for her and act accordingly.

    • Faith

      Well here's the thing, every woman is not basing her decision on sound principles. Hence the reality check of this blog post. Women have been duped into believing they can act like men and emerge unscathed. Men have been allowed to control and set the agenda for what works for THEM and the immediate. Open, "free" sex with zero accountability. It's time for a return to reinforcing VALUES. Men can have ALL the sex they want: in a committed, monogamous relationship where they are providing and protecting the woman. That's MORE than a fair exchange.

    • @APA this is so true! And the type of experiences your friends are speaking of is unfortunately all too common. I know women who have become so desensitized that they are now !SHOCKED! when a man wants to take them on a real date; or if the man is willing to take them out on a date without expecting sex FIRST, but of course we all know that when you lead with sex a real date is likely not to come. We as women have been completely bamboozled.

      P.S.
      By the way, this is a really important post Faith!

      • Faith

        Thanks Zabeth! It's time for those women -- from all backgrounds -- to give serious, thoughtful consideration to ALL ideologies currently permeating Western society and ask ourselves if they ADD VALUE to our lives and what the impact will be on future generations of women. I am well aware there are exceptions to any and all situations, but the vast MAJORITY of these types of dalliances leave women jaded, vulnerable and wary of all men even if Mr. "Right" appeared. A woman has NO WAY of truly feeling the whole impact to her psyche or her views on relationships until she has to decide what to accept, what to refuse and find out what has worked best for her elevation. I know young women who are not even 25 yet and have HORRIBLE opinions of ALL men and don't even expect or can fully comprehend what a viable and reciprocal relationship is, based on their being unprepared to deal with the few they’ve intermingled with thus far. Disappointment can scar a woman deeply, leaving her vulnerable to future damage and then she may lack the ability to bounce back. Then what? I'm sorry (not), but I am not aware of any physical pleasure that is that enjoyable to make up for the negative impact once your spirit has been throttled to a pulp. Why would any women take any random guy who has not PROVEN himself at his word?

  • Shermy

    What Khadija said!

  • Part 5

    From a marriage-minded woman's perspective, one of the most important overall patterns to be mindful of is that: In general, men don't just drift into being sexually exclusive with a woman. Men also don't just drift into committed relationships with women. A woman usually has to steer the interactions into that direction. Part of that steering is by not having sex without a commitment; and not early in the relationship.

    Left to their own devices, most men will use up years out of woman's life without moving the relationship forward to commitment and marriage. Even more so if they're getting sex from the woman without having to commit to her.

    Whether this has its origins in culture or evolutionary biology doesn't matter. The point for any sensible woman is to protect herself from being burned by these general, overall male behavior patterns.

    {going back into radio silence after this very long-winded comment—smile}

  • Part 4

    (3) When advising women, a quality man does NOT fixate on the exceptions to men's overall behavior patterns.

    The observed pattern throughout various cultures and various times in history has been that men are generally inclined to be sex-hunters. Their observed patterns indicate that most men don't prefer being sexually exclusive to one woman. Sexual exclusivity is not most men's "default" setting. Most men's default setting is to have sex with as many women as will let them. Under a limited range of circumstances, men are interested in, or at minimum, willing to engage in sexual exclusivity with a particular woman . . . but most men won't naturally drift into that.

    Left to their own devices (meaning without some type of intervening circumstance such as religious beliefs or a relationship that they're unwilling to risk losing), most men will accept whatever casual sex that random women are willing to give them.

    This does not mean that every, single man fits into the above overall pattern. But women can't afford to be quick to believe that any particular man is an exception. The stakes are simply too high.

  • Faith

    I also want to add, as a blog forum host whose purpose is in informing, encouraging, protecting and holding women accountable so they have better lives (not exclusive to black women, but my triage efforts were mainly spent within my racial and ethnic group) I'd be far more concerned about steering and shielding my readership than worrying about how any criticism may be perceived. I'd be doing women a disservice by being focused on not encouraging them -- sternly if necessary to not throw themselves off a cliff just because someone else said it looked like "fun".

  • Part 3

    (2) A man who advocates that women engage in casual/early/commitment-free sex is NOT a friend or ally to women. Similar to how a man who advocates that women engage in oow and single parenting is NOT a friend or ally to women. He's a W-O-L-F; with or without sheep's clothing.

    Such a man is a wolf because he's advocating that women put themselves in an extremely vulnerable, dangerous spot. [And men know this. This is why I don't recall seeing any men on that thread you linked to saying that they would advocate that their daughters engage in casual sex.] A male who advocates those activities can be a passive wolf who is simply not interested in protecting women from the harms that they risk by engaging in those activities. Or he can be an active wolf who cheerleads casual sex because he's consciously and deliberately saying whatever he thinks will help him get over on women.

    • Faith

      Oh yes, I give a MAJOR side eye to anyone cheerleading me off a cliff. The response at my destruction will be that I made the choice and have to live with it, not that I was mislead in any way.

  • Part 2

    We see the emotional, financial, and health wreckage caused by casual/early/commitment-free sex all around us (STDs, anyone?). And we see who tends to suffer the most from that wreckage. The flip side of the "Who benefits?" question is to ask, "Which party is most vulnerable to suffering the downside(s) if something goes wrong?"

    Frankly, I'm flabbergasted to see how out of touch with basic reality so many physically adult, Western women are. I will add that this cluelessness is an artifact of the current day Western world. Other women (including other types nonblack women of color who live in the West—such as East Asian women who live in the US) are not clueless about the consequences they are most likely to suffer if/when they let themselves get talked into and/or choose to mishandle their feminine assets, including their sexuality.

    • Faith

      I've come to really value our unique traits and gifts as women and ladies that have nothing to do with political feminist activism. Much the same way African-Americans have thrown away our heritage and special contributions, Western women have fallen for a very narrow definition of womanhood that may have been useful to a few at one time, but no longer benefit the group as a whole. ALL women need to be thinking, "Who Benefits?" If they act a fool, like a man, trashy, treat sex as sport and eschew relationships — or destroy them from within with selfish, unrealistic expectations — how are they and any children they have going to fare? Or will they start regretting they hadn't figured these core values sooner? It's something everyone should think about. Seriously.

  • Faith,

    I had to temporarily come out of my internet participation retirement to say THANK YOU for this blog post. You said the common sense things that needed to be said. This conversation is directly parallel to the crazy, "up is down" conversations that AA women (and some others) have about oow childbirth and single parenting.

    It's very, very simple:

    (1) In the vast majority of instances, casual/early/commitment-free sex does NOT bring benefit to a woman's life. Similar to how oow childbearing and single parenting do NOT—in the vast majority of situations—bring benefit to a woman's life. The common sense, observed reality is that these activities tend to damage a woman's life and her future opportunities for wholesome, legitimate, marriage. These activities tend to bring suffering into a woman's life.

    • Faith

      Khadija: Thank you for taking the time to comment. I am incredulous that we even need to have THIS conversation in 2011, but like many destructive patterns that have become the norm for some groups (blacks) and increasingly for others, somebody has to declare the world is NOT flat! This is some Twilight Zone, Hell Dimension, insanity. Women can ignore their denigration and impending demise at their own peril!!

  • Alee

    Hi Faith, Alee here.

    I'll number this to make it more structured:

    1) Thanks for taking the time to respond to the post. It's always great to have a wide variety of perspectives on whatever the topic is. I encourage anyone to comment, respond, etc.

    2) I can't really say that I agree with this post in general. We're in agreement that it would probably be better for women to wait rather than follow their feelings re: sex because there are numerous consequences if they just go with whatever they're feeling at the moment.

    But I don't think that all men are only out for no-strings attached sex. Men are human just like women and can get attached and have feelings and some do feel more connected physically than any way else. Culture may encourage them to treat women like they are disposable (thus the 70 percent OOW rate for black births which was of course way lower in the past when black American culture was more positive as a whole). But at the end of the day each guy is different. I assure you there are men who aren't only out for that, as some commenters on the original post attested to, and I can attest to. Vetting is the word of the day, as usual.

    3) I don't know, you seem to be picking on my commenters. I'm all for debate, but I think name-calling is really unnecessary. A rebuttal without all that always reads as more incisive.

    4) Rob may be older, but what he is not is a biologist. No one there is… except me.

    His statements are based on his experience which doesn't prove anything at all about "basic biology". The only thing basic is the logic he used to arrive at his conclusions. A biologist would never observe an isolated phenomenon and jump to the conclusion that it has its roots in biology. People who do that are those that don't have a background in biology, or science in general. Obviously human behavior is influenced by so many factors besides biology. You would need to do some large, replicated studies in a variety of settings before claiming anything like that as biology.

    Rob does need to provide ample support when stating something is biological because we could just as easily come to the conclusion that his experiences are based on patriarchy and sexism that pervades many cultures.

    5) Culture/environment can and does overcome biology in many instances… trust me, I've worked in biology for years. A foundation can be set via biology and it's almost always tweaked, changed, or even eliminated based on surroundings, health, nurture, etc. This is observed in not only humans but the tiniest microorganisms.

    6) At the end of the day, people have to do what best works for them. I don't advocate a one-size fits all for many things, and this subject is no different.

    • Faith

      With all due respect Alee, the fact you allowed that Zek person free reign at your blog to spread a DEADLY message tht so favors male control and women's disempowerment had me floored. I realize we have an age gap, but there is a discernment gap that I cannot abide with. I made certain to bring my thoughts and refute that poison in my own forum rather than engage in a debate with you and your readers for that reason. The fact that you and others do not see that message as damaging as any ethnic/race-based annihiliation programs enacted by other groups has me DEEPLY concerned. You are of course entitled to your opinion as I am mine. I call out injustice across the board. This isn't solely about black women, though we see how the havoc of the Zeks of the black community has ravaged it. This is for ALL women! The base OOW rate has now increased to 40% with black women being the insanely high end at nearly 75% and Asian women comprising less than 20%. The derailing of stable relationships impacts ALL women and erodes society. The attitude of a "Zek" is not to be taken likely. It is just as hateful as any Nazi propaganda — which I'm certain he'd take issue with, yet ignore his own complicity in doing something equally heinous to women. At the end of the day, I call as I see it. Agree or disagree, it needed to be said.

      • Alee

        Hi Faith,

        The purpose of my blog is to discuss all sorts of social issues, relationships, things going on around us. On a semi-related article it was suggested that Zek guest post on the topic of men's view on casual sex. I agreed because I appreciate a wide variety of perspectives on the issues we're discussing, and I thought it would be informative and make a good discussion, whether people agreed or disagreed with what he had to say. I had no idea what he would write beforehand.

        And Zek wrote his perspective on the issue; he didn't say "Do this". I think any woman who considers herself grown enough to engage in sex should also be grown enough to realize that that was just his opinion, not some guideline to how women should engage in casual sex. And I also leave the comments section open, so I and others can agree or disagree and discuss the topic at length, and people reading can get a more well-rounded picture. The discussion didn't stop at the end of Zek's post; that's where it began.

        I don't agree with Zek's "organic" approach, but I wasn't going to reject his post for that reason alone. That's just his perspective: [One] Man's View on Casual Sex. That's all I wanted to offer — a perspective that people might be interested in hearing. I didn't say I co-signed with everything he said there. I'm glad others chimed in with their views as well, because this is a never-ending discussion. I'm not going to "shield" people from this perspective; it is much milder than anything they will get in the outside world of sex and dating, and if they do hear it out there, then at least they will be prepared.

        • Faith

          Alee: How you run your forum is your business. I will continue to state that a guy like Zek offers NOTHING OF ANY VALUE TO A WOMAN — except to try to present himself as a quality male. Which he is NOT. He can call it organic, freedom, modern, 2000 relevant, his opinion, his exception or the new style it is still POISON. We are NOT going to agree on this point at all. Since I do not agree I’m having this conversation is MY forum. The criticism and analysis is VALID whether anyone else accepts it, understands it or wishes to narrow the definition to excepts, caveats, biology or because today is Wednesday. This is the SAME attitude of those women who cheerlead, deny and excuse the damage out of wedlock child-rearing has had for AA women and talk nonsense about “Raising Him Alone” and “government programs”. FAMILIES MATTER. RELATIONSHIPS MATTER. Commitment and Devotion are a fundamental right for every woman in society. I don’t care how “modern” we are.

          I also find it very interesting how you seem to be overly concerned with protecting Zek’s right to trash women and trying to dissuade calling him out — when he’s at your forum bashing other women who’ve offered opposing viewpoints. Why aren’t you protecting THEM from HIM? I am not in the least bit surprised he lowered his “FAKE NICE GUY” act to show his true colors. Again ladies…LIVE AND LEARN from the mistakes of other women and true life examples of women who’re avoiding these DBRs before YOU get caught up, used and discarded like trash!!!

          • Catalina

            Faith; although I understand your viewpoints and how you despise Zek’s perspective (whoever he is), I am put off by your anger a tthe situation. Yes, his perspective may be poison in today’s world--but this viewpoint exists not only in him. At least via these forums we heard it and can prepare to battle against it or not fall victim to it in the real world. There is no need to take his message down and curse at others for keeping it up.

            I also recently learned soem harsh realities about men and getting dumped like trash if you aren’t smarter. But it seems that you got hung up on it and are bitter. Energy spent on anger at those men can be spent on making yourself more prepared for future encounters >.< I didn't mean this comment/reply to be mean….it just irks me when people get angry at others for no reason except that they are bitter and don't realise it or are not sure how to express it.

          • Faith

            I guess you consider being for women as angry. Your lack of concern doesn’t negate anything discussed or resolve the issues at hand.

  • MesaATLien

    Hi Faith!

    Thank you for sharing your experiences with us. You dodged a bullet with those losers.

    I was watching the Cosby Show the other day, and I loved the use of the phrase "Gentleman Caller". It has such class to it, that's what I'm using from now on! ;) It was when the grandparents were celebrating their anniversary, and the grandmother was speaking to the grandfather about the first time he "called on her". Cliff also told the story about how instead of accepting his proposal for coffee, she proposed for him to have lunch with her and her parents in their home and he wanted to do so because he was interested in her. It was just a wonderful scene episode that has stuck with me ever since I saw it. Granted, I've seen it many times in the past, but being more knowledgeable and wiser definitely opens your eyes to see important teachable moments. They have lost sight of decency and chivalry. No shame from the man-children. What's even worse is that we have lost sight of the standards that we had in terms of choosing suitable partners and allow the foolishness to live on!

    Watching Cosby Show reruns has made me realize how much the women, especially Clair, were held up and idolized on there. The few times chauvinistic behavior was shown (quite watered down, in fact) was in the cases when Elvin was ALWAYS schooled by Clair and everyone else. Women were, and still are, the prize.

    P.S. If anyone is so inclined, the "Just Thinking About It" episode is a nice little side view to this blogpost, I believe. While watching, keep in mind the quote from Faith: "Men coerce or encourage women to work against their best interests in relationships."

    I didn't like the end of the episode though. (-_-)

    • Faith

      Well, I'm glad to help any younger woman dodge a bullet! Like Neo and Trinity!! Anyway, I'm going to add that Cosby episode to the post because it seems writing about common sense matters just goes over the heads of some people. Maybe watching a tv show that displays the types of values we're discussing here will start to sink in. Thanks!

  • Believer

    I'm happy you made this post Faith. Thats why I decided to put my body on lock down till I found the right one. Sex is alot of responsibility. Responsibility that I have no time for. When I was told how it tethered you emotionally to the guy you have it with I knew there was no way I was going to do this with any and every one. Thats just the nature of women…we are emotional human beings….period. When someone has control of your emotions they have the power to hurt you. Some men will abuse that power. Then there is the issue of unwanted pregnancy and STD's was too much of a bother esspecially if you are at a stage in your life when you can't afford to have slip ups . I was scared straight as a kid seeing girls get pregnant OOW having to struggle to maintain a child. Not to mention the possibility of rendering yourself infertile after an STD. Even when you do use condoms and birth control, mistakes can still happen. I've seen some girls begin to cold sweat when their period didn't come or was a little late. HAVE MERCY!! Thats why its best to have sex with a well VETTED man so that you know he won't run around town and bring you a disease and be a responsible father.

    • Faith

      I didn't even get into the physical and chemical reactions we have innately built in to help with human pair bonding. I'm not here to curtail anyone's freedom of choice. I hope women will make choices that HELP them rather than HURT them.

  • Faith

    Thanks Halima: As you know though, that message wasn't only for black women. That was for ALL women. I do have an extensive number of white women who read this blog and I want them to avoid the pitfalls of DBRs, Man-Children and otherwise UNSUITABLE males also!! I highly doubt that fool who wrote the guest post will try to refute his intentions, but I did note he's dating a black woman. I hope she has a parachute!

  • contd
    next: men get 'brought' to the point of being considerate human beings willing to give a thought to the needs and concerns of others after life has taught them a thing or two (more than likely paid them back in their own coin!). sometimes parents and family might be somewhat succesful in bringing some men up to be caring and giving, beyond that, it is all about what they can get out of the situation.

    Cultures also give rise to monsters because men are already poised to be all about themselves, and then add a culture like the black culture, that allows men freedom and permission to be as selfish as possible and you are talking major disaster. There are other cultures that reign men in by imposing obligations and expectations on them or having reward systems inbuilt in them that ensure that runaway masculintiy isnt the norm and is penalized. bw would do well to 'fish' in those waters!

  • You are right right right on faith. I am a firm believer that bw need to russle through a pile of men -like that machine in the bank- to get to the good ones lol! Thats why bw need to be out there dating and vetting like mad.

    speaking in general and not partaining to the the young mans article etc, it seems sad that many bw in general want to be 'had' by political correct speaking that seems to be the in thing in society now. You know the 'reframing' speak that never wants to acknowledge that humanity and sections of society can have wrong/evil impulses. indeed bw seem so ready to 'believe' in the goodness of hearts, never mind how many times they get knocked to the ground by being naive and too trusting.

    I believe -and this is the bottom line for me-that men are naturally selfish. period. You can set your watch by it and you wont be too far off lol!

    contd

  • Bunny77

    Hi Faith! Thanks for highlighting my comments. I appreciate your support.

    There was one point that I made that might have been misunderstood. I don't think that young women should be fighting to earn the respect of men who aren't acting in ways that are worthy of respect. For example, I know that there are men who will try to set up women for failure by trying to have sex with them at a certain early juncture. They'll start getting touchy-feely on a first date or invite the woman up to his place or walk her to her door and wait around to see if she'll let him in. If she gives in and they have sex, he'll decide that she's not worthy of respect and move on. If she turns him down, he'll decide that she is worthy of respect and is relationship material, and will then pursue her differently.

    However, I wouldn't want that guy at all. I don't want women to fight for the respect of men who are trying to set them up to fail by enticing them into casual sex. I would only want the respect of a man who is himself respectable… so a woman's actions in rejecting casual sex shouldn't be based on trying to earn respect from a cad, but to protect herself and determine if she's dating a man with honorable intentions.

    I remember getting a first phone call from a man at 10:30 p.m. I let him know that was unacceptable and he said, "Well, now that I know what type of girl you are and what values you have, I'll act differently." But as far as I was concerned, he as an adult man in his late 30s should have had the decency and courtesy to call at a much earlier hour, regardless of what values I might have had. He didn't really know me, but he was testing me to see if I was worthy of his respect. But why should I want that type of man anyway?

    That's what I meant.

    • Faith

      Bunny77: Ah thanks for the clarification and I am so grateful you decided to post her. This is why it's good to have these conversations and make sure we've clarified ourselves. I also want to thank you for being main woman-friendly voice of reason in that thread. You have no idea what sound advice you gave and I hope those women realize what a service to them your taking time out of your life to reply benefits them. As I understand it you are already happily married. They are not! I had to call that nonsense out publicly and will continue to do so as time permits where I see such blatant destructive messages being dispensed.

  • LDub512

    I think that sometimes women feel obligated to follow a certain feminist script, without thinking about whether it is in line with their personal goals and morals. I understand the value of the feminist movement and the opportunities it opened. However, just because some feminists think women should and can have sex like men, does not mean I am PERSONALLY comfortable with it. Just because some feminists think marriage=slavery, does not mean I have to agree.

    Part of this is being able to think for yourself and ask critical questions of feminist scripts and men who pretend to be feminist and proponents of sexual freedom for their own sexual benefit. As Khadijah might have asked: Who benefits? Many men will use this rhetoric to get easy sex, but would never think of marrying the women they "hit and quit." That's the basic reality.

  • LDub512

    I actually have been thinking a lot about the difference between dating and courtship these days. One thing I have been thinking about is eliminating the term "dating" from my vocabularly. At this point I beleive it can be a dangerous term. I think when many women say that they and a man are dating, they are imagining a certain level of committement or possible committment that may not exist -- ever. It encourages many women to let their guards down emotionally and sexually. In the early stages a man is a possible friend, whom you are getting to know better. Thus he should be treated like a friend -- and not a "friend with benefits." Then if both parties agree, after a reasonable amount of time has passed, they may enter a committed relationship. In my mind this more closely echoes courtship, which seems to have gone out the window these days.

    • Faith

      LDub: Whatever works for you. If the term "dating" has been so misapplied that people automatically equate dating wit sex between two single folks who may or (more often) may not be in a committed relationship then by all means, drop it from your lexicon. We have to reevaluate EVERYTHING for what works best for the longer-term benefits of WOMEN. Whatever men are left after a woman sets rock solid high standards is a potential keeper. All the other ones can take a flying leap as far as I'm concerned! Those men who ahve proven themselves are getting a prize and should act accordingly.

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