Black Women Ask: How “Big” Is Too Big When Dating Interracially?

Courtesy of CW’s Black Women Deserve Better Facebook Group, participant LaToya asked this question a few days ago.
 
I was wondering if any “larger” than thick sisters have more trouble than their skinny counter parts when it comes to dating men of different races? Do you find that when white, asian, indian or hispanic men choose a black mate she’s either skinny or thick? Do the big girls find it harder to date outside of their race? Are they considered less attractive? If so, why?

 Read our conversation and my take on what can be a contentious subject after the jump…..

We need to establish a few key points since some of the BWE bloggers have made it a point to mention and actively encourage black women to get their weight to a manageable size not simply to “catch a man” but for health purposes. We do need to be considerate but realistic because the only ones who suffer from soft-pedaling core issues are often the black women who can afford it the least. Due to such tendencies to back away from examining things fully it’s very easy to get defensive. It’s one reason why I have been very cautious about what and if I say anything about it.

Sometimes we’re more focused on throwing out objections. Not to mention the over-generalization and blatant misrepresentation some of us have engaged in when discussing our size. Yes, there will always be exceptions and defending ourselves is a natural response to something that needles us. Inevitably that is the sticking point for many women who may shut down, especially those influenced heavily in the indoctrination zone of the “dead” black community. Especially when it comes to “rainbow dating”.

We have to be able to get past the rudimentary head-in-sand or hand-on-hip response if we are to continue growing. How we as women view each other is also something to give thought to. The women participating in that conversation are seeking heterosexual relationships so I have to ask why do we rely so much on the opinion of other women about our appeal to men? We’re not dating each other! As much as we may think highly of each other, the bottom line is the mate a woman is seeking has much more weight (yup I’m throwing out the puns) when it comes to whom he finds most appealing to begin with – and likewise.

I’m not interested in tearing any woman down. Nor coddling her to an early grave. I think very few of us are actually all that confused about what we need to do, but we may not have made it a priority or think it’s possible to fit certain standards when our collective and individual images have been devalued for so long. It simply feels like we’re being rejected on a whole (if the focus is on rainbow men) when we’re “accepted” by men of a similar background. More likely there’s a larger group dynamic at place where certain males on the decline will accept women they’d reject if they were in the dominant position.

There is a certain amount of healing and inner work that must take place as we expand our dating choices and perspectives, moving mentally and physically into new zones. Then there’s the inevitable work and extension of efforts that are required to get there. You know..the less pleasant aspects from having a reality check and making the necessary adjustments. If we choose. We basically need to find a single home, career, life partner, etc. (but always many streams of income/asset development) to satisfy our needs at major junctures of our lives but to get to that we need as many options as possible.

On the flip side of this debate is a question I asked: if the shoe was on the other foot would we (assuming we’re coming from a healthy self-esteem and relationship outlook) be clamoring for similarly-situated men and would we accept the reasoning for their condition? What would our standards be? The bottom line is who wants to scrounge for scraps in a dumpster when you can be seated at the head of the banquet like the Queens you are?

***

I’ll be away today but leave a comment, talk amongst yourselves and if you’re a new participant to this blog give me some time to approve your message.  Thanks!

58 comments to Black Women Ask: How “Big” Is Too Big When Dating Interracially?

  • ak

    Look they say that women in general are less visual and less sexual than men in general BUT I don't see where 'they' said that women are less visual and less sexual than men on the most miniscule or microscopic basis!

    It's normal as a girl becomes a woman and becomes even older that she will look more past just a man's looks and looks at his personality and the way he treats her, the people in his life and himself, and that's healthy and good. BUT to deny certain standards of attraction which ALL people have within themselves, sometimes it's just instinctive and you just can't help it, is fruitless and a bit weird.

    And as hard as it may be to believe, sometimes 'a beauty and a brain' can go hand in hand with each other for either gender. Cindy Crawford was a high school valedictorian and more than ready to do something other than modelling if nothing worked out for her, or so I heard from an interview and Naomi Campbell was all into her school books quite happily while she attended a prestigious London school of the arts when she was younger.

    I agree that if a woman goes to the extremes of her 'Hollywood Idol checklist' when it comes to prospective men yet meanwhile she's always 'down' and sad and complaining about how she's 'so lonely' then uh yeah, it's time to look past those superficial physical or whatever qualities just a bit. But even when Jamie Foxx portrayed Ray Charles in 'Ray' he felt up women's arms to judge their 'atrractiveness' to him, and when he felt up the arm of the fat chick, his face just fell.

    People have to have, you know, some kind of standard for well just about everything and everybody in life really because it's normal, and not every woman will find 'Hollywood Idol' looks attractive in her men either anyway. Take me for instance, a fat guy, I dunno about that one. Yet if even he said he 'didn't want a big woman', it's just supposed to be OK? Well OK then. LOL

    I have to be able to want to lay down with a husband I plan to have children with, and I'm sure he wouldn't want me to just fall apart on him one day with my head looking like a bird's nest. It's just that I'm not a 21 year old spring chicken anymore and I know that prospective husband material has to be vetted, and I need a man I can rely on to be respectful, protective, intelligent, financially solvent, with drive and motivation, and with proof of these things. I never said I wanted a good-looking, empty headed, and sexist jerk; I can't lay with that either! LOL

  • Fat blockers faith, they have been life savers for me when my head was just not in the place to be disciplined, at least each failure didnt have to show up on my waistline and mean restarting from scrach.

    it is better to build the discipline no doubt however i am a twenty first century woman and i will take advantage of every modern invention available to help me along.

    there is an expense of course and some are classed as medical devices however there are some 'herbal' alternatives! Orlistat is quite effective and is actually used alongside a healthy eating and fitness regime to double your efforts! You can read up on the side effects online!

  • Lisa99

    To Liza… you said…

    Lisa99,

    Yes, why should you be with a guy because he is nice when you’re not attracted him. I bet you will find very few men out there who will date a woman he wasn’t attracted to just because she’s. Yeah, he might have a one-night-stand with her, if she makes herself available. I’m so sick and tired of the double the standards.

    I don’t think anyone here was saying that they only wanted to date good-looking men who were broke. I have never dated a loser of any race. Yeah, believe it or not but there are good-looking men of means. I’ve dated a few and some of them can actually be decent and treat you well, too (gasp). Why can’t you have both? He doesn’t have to be perfect looking but there has to be an attraction. I just hate the negative preconceived notions automatically applied to good-looking men/women.

    Also, I don’t need a man in order to have a good/nice life because I’ve been able to provide that for myself (and don’t pay any man’s way either). And not because I’m playing the Strong BW role here. It’s because it gives me the freedom to choose who I want to be with, without me having to need to be the with them. But, at the same time, I don’t have a problem and I really don’t judge women who do look to men for that.

    Here's the thing. I used to feel that there was this awful double standard involving men and women and their desire to have a good-looking partner… but then I started looking a lot more closely at the types of couples I saw out and about.

    Yes, there were some in which the woman was markedly more attractive than the man. But in most cases, the women weren't models either. I find that while men will decide quickly if they're attracted to a woman, most mentally mature men don't need perfection in a woman to be attracted to her. The men who have the mindset of dismissing a woman immediately if she's not of a certain type (say, leggy and blonde) usually stay single for a while as well. Yes, men expect to be attracted to their girlfriends/wives, but 90% of them aren't marrying the image they likely had in their minds when they were initially asked to think of their ideal look in a woman.

    I see very few couples in which both partners are very good looking. Most just look like normal people — they're cute moreso than gorgeous, they might have a great feature like nice eyes, thick hair, shapely legs, dimples, etc., but neither will be making the cover of GQ or ELLE any time soon.

    I don't think anyone in this thread said that a good-looking man can't also be a good provider, kind man, etc. This isn't a Tyler Perry thought board here. My statement — and Evia's — is mainly focused on HOW people are defining good-looking when it comes to the dating/mating process and specifically, how many BW define it when it comes to IR dating. Would I have married Rupert Murdoch or Leslie Moonves like those two Asian women did? NOPE! But there is a vast array of choices on the attractiveness spectrum between Brad Pitt/George Clooney and Rupert Murdoch and if a dude is a 7 or a 6 on most people's looks scale, but he's a 10 in my eyes? That's perfect for me.

    I think that's the point. Don't worry about others' perception of the man's physical appearance or that he doesn't fit a certain image you usually like. How are YOU attracted to him?

    And finally, just to address the last paragraph… I could have also stayed single for the rest of my life and supported myself and had a good life. I did for a long time and I wouldn't have given that up for anyone. But um, I guess I don't understand the point of that comment… isn't it pretty much a given that we know that most readers on this board can do bad by themselves, but the point is that if you WANT to marry, then find a man who will only add to what you've already created on your own??? I mean, this is a thread about dating, so why wouldn't we talk about the best qualities to look for in a man? This isn't a discussion about whether or not anyone needs a man.

    • Neecy

      I'm just really getting annoyed at how a simple comment about women ALSO wanting to have a partner they are attracted to turned into this whole other issue about Asian women and their husbands and how BW need to start acting and being like Julie Chen and such. HUH? Maybe Julie Chen was PHYSICALLY attracted to her husband?

      No one here is talking about LOOKS. We are talking about ATTRACTION. There is a huge difference. i don't recall anyone on this thread saying they wanted to date only Brad Pitt look alikes.

      ALL WE SAID was women too also want to be physically attracted to their partner. THATS IT. No need to read into it anymore than that.

      Where is all scolding and other stuff about what Asian women are doing coming from?

      • We're simply off on a related tangent, but an important one.

      • Liza207

        Hey Neecy!

        Yeah, this is what happens when this subject comes up about women wanting to be with a man we find attractive. This is due to centuries of indoctrination. This sexist double standard has been so damaging to women and I have never understood why it wasn't addressed during the Women's Movement. It irks that men are still dictating how we should look. This has hurt BW with BM telling us that they prefer us to be "thick", (and of course the light-skinned and straight long hair obssession they have), so BW feel that they will be more desirable to BM if they carried around a few extra pounds and now look at where that has gotten us. We are the most unhealthy women in this country but we are also responsible for buying to this. Then you have WW on the other end of the spectrum where WM prefer their women thin, so WW are contorting themselves to be thin while developing eating disorderies that are killing them. While women are jumpimg though hoops to appease men, men get to walk around scott-free.

        There is absolutely nothing wrong with a woman wanting to be with someone she is attracted to. It's your right to be with whom you please as long as you're being real with yourself and who you can get as a mate.

        Now to address the AW thing, we all know that AW are social climbers who love WM and I don't see anything with that but at least they don't have forums where they go to grandize them like they are the ultimate. Neecy, like you said many weeks ago on BB&W, BW are too male identified and this has been hurting for a long time in the dating realm. We have grandized BM to the point where they don't respect us or appreciate us. It is as if we are assigning to same behavior to WM which I believe will ulitimately backfire.

        If we are going to continue to do this maybe a lot of these forums should go private because men for the most are arrogant and egotistical. Too much tend to go their heads and eventually they will start acting up. I thind these forums are one of the best things that have happened for BW. But we have to be careful of the image that we projecting and how it will effect us in the long run. Please, don't let history repeat itself.

        Lastly, I don't believe in giving WM any special consessions that I wouldn't give to BM or men of other races. I don't see WM as anything special, although, they are my perference I don't/won't hold to a different standard or will lower my standards just to be with them. They are not doing anything special or unusual, all they are doing is behaving the way normal men should. Period. I know many BW aren't use to being exposed to normal behaving men, so WM seemed really special but they're not.

        I'm have exhausted this I know and I'm done.

        • Faith

          Liza: I wanted to address a few things in your comment. None of the conversations about improving ourselves is to put any male on a pedestal. That's their job. While this isn't about uplifting WM or trying to -- this inevitable conclusion is that BW who want to increase their marriage marketability DO have a responsibility to meet some minimum standards IF those standards are also being met by their future and potential husbands as a group.

          Regardless, white males are still the best option for black women as a collective.

          People may not like it or want to accept it, but we have to deal in reality not magical thinking. If you as an individual do not find them appealing that is not an avenue for you to pursue but far to many BW are NOT IN A POSITION to be rejecting an entire group of males who have SHOWN BY THEIR ACTIONS to be a stable collective who enhance the status of the women of their group.

          Bitter pill for some….too bad. Black men have had more than enough time to strengthen the black collective and they've chosen to uplift the daughters of their "enemies" by and large instead. So be it.

          Black women need to move on and LIVE WELL!

          As for attractiveness, I think it changes by individual. I've met a variety of men who would not be on my "list" who were more than appealing because I was flexible. Certain core values are always non-negotiable, but everything else is. A person's "cuteness" factor shifts based on how the needs of the relationship are covered. If a person shows themselves able to meet them immediately I would not readily dismiss them for not rating a double-take in the looks department.

  • Zoopath

    @Evia: I totally agree with what you'er saying re: average looking QLL men! They are so slept on it's not even funny. As long as I can *grow* attracted to a man, that's all that matters. If I feel the need to gaze upon a lovely countenance then I can go look at myself. Being beautiful is not even close to a man's most important role in my life. Anoter untapped gold mine is short(er) men. They have the best customer service out there! My rule when dating was that he could be my height (5'3'') if he was a super-earner but as long as a guy was taller than me then we has eligible. As man's looks are not, repeat *not* what is going to make you marriage last long term.

  • Because of your diet and exercise, your hair grows faster,

    Bingo!

    I used to be able to wear braids for approaching 3 months. these days before one month i have to take them out because the undergrowth is unsightly. the hair is literarily pouring out of my scalp, never happened before even when i was a spring chicken lol! I am not complaining even though you can imagine the cost and time to get braids each month!

    you can control fibroids, infertility etc with excercise (and nothing too strenous either). when you look at the myriads of things that ail bw and how easily they can be resolved with moderate excercise and healthy eating, we would be fools to not give it a go.

    I know many bw are resitant out of the fear of failure and having their only life 'crutch' removed from them, but still….

  • Patricia Kayden

    Here's an interesting article on how obesity has caused Black women to become shorter over time.

    http://www.newser.com/story/46368/black-women-get

    Losing weight is HARD, but it is well worth the health benefits.

  • tertiaryanna

    Faith, you and the BWE bloggers have been on fire, and this message is truly helpful.

  • MsMellody

    Ive been fat – Ive been skinny (I got down to a size 8 for 15 min. last year) You what I found out? That thin people – GET EVERYTHING!! LIFE IS GREAT! Men look in your face and smile, people who couldn’t stand to be in the same room with you are now all up in your face. Clothes are cheaper, your skin doesnt feel tight, you sleep much better, you stop snoring. Because of your diet and exercise, your hair grows faster, your hormones go back to normal, so those chin hairs and mustache go away – YOUR LIFE CHANGES – for the better! I’m not kidding with you – people will hire you because of the way you look. You will feel better.

    To Tracy -

    That was the best response I have YET to read!!! You are so SO on point with that "revelation" of " You know what —people look at you!!!

    And isnt that what all women want and enjoy -- That POWER of MAKING people look at you- even unconsciously having that POWER feels great. To know that when you walk into a clothing store that you can pick just about anything on the racks and slip effortlessly into it…the power of making a maitre' de ( sp?) seat you and your date first/best table because he caught your eye and liked it when you winked at him ( one of my fave things to do ) the power of walking into a room and all the heads turn toward you -- and like Tracy said — even when someone "can't stand you" they still must fight the urge to look at you in an approving way ( I have experienced this also!! -- I really enjoyed seeing this woman in my condo building fighting the urge to frown when EVERYONE else in the condo meeting was ooo-ing and ahh-ing at seeing my new weight loss- that was the BEST!!!)

    So YES is the answer to the question -- you as a single woman will do better if you lose weight, make it a goal, make it measurable, give yourself a deadline. Gather the necessary tools and then just get it done!!

  • Tracy

    Hey there!

    I'm so happy to read these comments! Women that get it -- Yes!!

    Ok since I have been on both sides of the spectrum and I have and am currently dating IR -- I will let you in on some secrets! Some you already know…

    As for what non-black men like -- a majority of them like curves, especially here in the Midwest where subzero temps are as common as rain. You want that big butt next to you in December.. BUT>>>>here is the thing. When I say Curvy, here is your model -- Christina Hendricks or Tocharra (the new Tocharra)….that is a 12-14 or a tall 16! Yeah, that's not near what BW consider curvy. They like toned but still a little soft arms and legs and please have a waistline!

    They want you to take care of yourself, but they don't want to hear about your fitness plans for the month. Just do it….and get it over with.

    Im not saying you have to be this great beauty -- you dont. But you do have to take care of yourself. Dating is fun, but if you are not in shape physically, you wont be up for it mentally. Ive been there, if your routine is going home from work and lumping on the couch, come Friday or Saturday nite on your date, that is where you will be. I know "He should want me for me".But with no rest, greasy sugary foods, and no exercise, YOU…are gonna suck. So put some effort into life, and reap the rewards.

    Ive been fat -- Ive been skinny (I got down to a size 8 for 15 min. last year) You what I found out? That thin people -- GET EVERYTHING!! LIFE IS GREAT! Men look in your face and smile, people who couldn't stand to be in the same room with you are now all up in your face. Clothes are cheaper, your skin doesnt feel tight, you sleep much better, you stop snoring. Because of your diet and exercise, your hair grows faster, your hormones go back to normal, so those chin hairs and mustache go away -- YOUR LIFE CHANGES -- for the better! I'm not kidding with you -- people will hire you because of the way you look. You will feel better.

    You will want to go out and change your dating destiny instead of spending Friday and Saturday nites on Facebook talking about dating.

    How long does it safely take to lose it? I lost over 90 pounds in a years time -- walking, eventually running and eating right. Not starving, not depriving myself, just not overeating.

    Will you gain the weight back -- yes you will! IF you stop exercising and eating right! As I have learned, this is a lifetime thing, not a quick fix! I have put back on a few pounds in the last few months. I. HATE. IT.

    Only because I now know how it feels to be healthy and normal. I miss my energy , my clarity. I want my one chin, my cheekbones and my guns back -- and I will get them back.

    Yes, you can be happy and be overweight -- but you can also be complacent! Know the difference!

    • Neecy

      Tracy,

      You had me dying at paragraph number 6! Especially with the chin hair thing. LOL

      I don't believe ANY human being was meant to be overweight. And I believe that is why people are most attracted to in shape fit looking people.

    • Faith

      Tracy: I'm working on it. I just did a hike before I sat down to answer these comments. In the snow with heavy boots and a computer bag. I don't have to do everything perfectly, I just have to do it. This is also after a relative decided to stock the fridge with ice cream, cookies, bake a chocolate cake last week and now made an apply pie last night trying to sabotage me. I had to go out today for certain because I ate some of that pie last night, but I'm not going to let this defeat me. Since I had eaten under my allotted caloric intake that day I was technically "ok" but I hate what's happening. I'm in a transitional period right now and am currently not in charge of the kitchen but I can control what I eat (which is why I'm sticking with brown rice, eggs and veggies mostly) but my decision to make a permanent change has not wavered. I know I'm moving towards a break-through. It's nice to see your example.

      • Just take all that junk and chuck it into the trash. Don't feel guilty about wasting the food.

        After all, if you ate it you'd be treating your body as a garbage disposal.

        Whether the food is wasted by being thrown into the trash, or wasted by ending up as fat you then have to burn off, it is STILL wasted. Better in the trash than on your waist.

        Oh, and if you think it will stop their sabotage, you can always pretend you ate it. :)

        • Faith

          I didn't eat most of it but have been offered it directly. I ignored it for a few days until others ate it but the steady stream of junk food is a distraction. That and the double portions of food.

    • lois

      Good comments.

    • ann

      "They want you to take care of yourself, but they don't want to hear about your fitness plans for the month. Just do it….and get it over with."

      "Ive been fat -- Ive been skinny. You know what I found out? Thin people -- GET EVERYTHING!! " That statement sucks but, for the most part it is true.

      "How long does it safely take to lose it? I lost over 90 pounds in a years time -- walking, eventually running and eating right. Not starving, not depriving myself, just not overeating."

      I believe you. Simply by cutting back on the sweets and fats I once lost 13 pounds in two or three weeks. My physician was so proud of me and she wanted to know if I had starved myself…HECK no, I simply cut back on the sugar/fats, drank more water (I was over dosing on water) and moved more.
      And, yes when I stopped the above the excess weight returned. I will focuse more on my weight control after this semester is over.
      a.

      • Faith

        I appreciate the feedback Ann. Good luck with your fitness maintenance. I didn't publish the other comments because the responses were becoming less productive. This is about encouraging women to be their best, not devolving into castigation. Let's stay on focus.

  • Physical attraction is important but beauty is ultimately in the eye of the beholder. I’ve found that in my life the men I’ve found attractive weren’t always attractive to other women. I do also think that an average looking man’s character and other capabilities can ultimately make him more attractive physically, that’s why I believe it’s important to “give a guy a chance” so to speak. But I think this can also speak to values as well. As a woman who values physical fitness and nutrition, I’m not going to want to be with a physically unfit man who brings HoHos and Twinkies into our home, sorry.

    Furthermore a woman- especially if she is concerned about having children- should be mindful of her man’s age. New scientific research is suggesting that a man’s age at the time of conception can have some bearing on the physical and mental health of his children: http://www.newsweek.com/2009/04/21/for-whom-the-clock-ti.... I plan on doing a post about this in the new year. This isn’t talked about much because it goes against the patriarchal status quo, but age matters for men too.

  • Pamela

    What saddens me about the weight discussion is that you rarely hear the side of possibly placing burdens on your future husband by not taking care of excess weight. I lost 1/3 of my former self after two years of working at it. I had lost at least half of it before I started dating my husband last year. Even before he came on the scene I had the horror of watching my Dad SUFFER and DIE a HORRIBLE SLOW death all because he refused to eat properly. He was one of those men that felt that they could do what they wanted but the women had to have it right, especially when it came to how they looked and took care of themselves. The arguments that happened because he made excuses about eating all the crap he did were amazing. After he had a stroke which caused him to permanently lose his ability to walk and somewhat reason he apologized to us but it was too late. Two years of pure hell. As much as I miss him I was so relieved when he died on March 11, 2008. But he should have been around to give me away last December 18th.

    When I mentioned this on the thread referenced here I was horrified by one comment where the gal had a problem with people saying that being overweight can be unhealthy. As little as I watch TV I even know it has been reported and well known for decades that blacks have high percentages of cases of heart trouble, diabetes, high blood pressure and their cousins because of what we eat. It is not unique to blacks. ANYONE that eats unhealthy will more than likely have these problems. I'm not one to curse but was tempted to after reading the comments. Either the gal was really young or in serious denial. Did she not understand that things may not work quite the same the older you get????

    When i was overweight and a caretaker for my Dad I determined that I would do whatever I could to get the weight off (healthily of course). I was not planning on ending up like that if there were things I could do to prevent it. This decision had nothing at all to do with catching a man. HOWEVER later I realized that doing this would hopefully benefit the man as I got older. You can be overweight young and in many cases you will not have any problems. BUT KEEP LIVING. When I was a caretaker I gained half the weight in a year. I was so absorbed with helping my parents out that I ignored myself. As noble as that was my body did not care one twit about that. It was beginning to scream bloody murder. I knew I had better do something quick and in a hurry. Thankfully I was able to stop the madness before some undesired diagnoses were given to me.

    I thought that trying to appeal at the health issue would count for something. To think that there is barely a mention about it was deplorable. If you are not healthy, especially with something chronic, it can cause stress in a relationship. I guess I approached romance more on a pragmatic level. It is lovely to have that chemistry between you and the one that you love. BUT YOU WILL LIVE LIFE day to day and face whatever challenges and joys that come your way. To me the best thing a person can do is to change things in their lives (whatever they may be) that will reduce NEGATIVE stress. Preventing illness is one that all can do.

    I am one that ALWAYS wanted a man to look good. No shame about it. However after walking through the horror with my Dad I added to my list that he better be one that cared also about his health. At the time I had determined to be one also. Losing weight cannot prevent all sickness but there are too many to name that losing weight is known to prevent in the vast majority of people.

    I guess living for a few decades has influenced my view of romance. There is more to it than just attracting the man. There is a relationship to cultivate and build as well. The less stress you have on a relationship the better.

    • I agree with all of this. Being healthy means a happier, less stressful life.

      We went with my husbands family to one of the national parks around here a few weeks ago. It was a gorgeous day, and many families were out walking the trails. Everywhere there were kids scrambling over boulders, young couples with a baby in a front carrier, fit middle-aged friends taking a stroll.

      Needless to say I did not see any obese people that day.

      It struck me again how limiting it is to be in poor health.

      A man who enjoys hiking, swimming, an active, fun lifestyle is not going to want a fat woman. It isn't even ALL about looks.

    • Faith

      Pamela: I don't know if women have thought through that process fully regarding weight, dietary consumption and choice and how this ties into health. We're still at the appearance-related stage quite frankly. If so many BW can't even admit they're attracted to WM in the first place they're not going to get into the real-life daily living scenarios that need to be considered. Even with a BM. The majority of BW (or should I specify AA?) are not even married to anyone period. When you're on your own it becomes easier to make all sorts of excuses for things whereas if one had a partner (who cared) who said something about health or indicated they were concerned about weight gain/health then that woman would nip it in the bud. I also wonder how many BW would accept this excess weight/multi-layered potential health problem situation go unchecked in BM IF more were willing to marry them just so they could be married to any BM?

  • Faith, tell it like it T-I-is. Weight should not be a KEY factor in snagging a man; your health is. That said, FAT is NOT FULL-FILLING (lol) at least when you're trying to increase your chances to find a mate. Men are VISUAL creatures. Like Deborrah Cooper often says, men want to imagine what you might look like naked. Something to "chew" on.

  • Pam in FL

    I agree with the other ladies on here; there are a lot of women, and especially black women, that will describe themselves as "thick", "BBW", "curvy", "chunky", etc., when the reality is that they're fat. They're at least fat, and many of these women are a ways past fat, they're obese.

    Who are we kidding here? No one, really, and that includes men of different races. Do you think they can't see it if you're fat?

    And, there is no reason to ask the question, "Will it be harder for me to get dates with non-black men if I'm fat, because all of us, including the one asking the question, knows the answer is, "Yes".

    Hey, it's not that I'm not sympathetic. I was fat. I was packing 185 pounds on a 5"5' frame, and I told people I was thick and had some meat on my bones. I was lying to myself; I knew I was fat. But I couldn't say it, I couldn't admit it to anyone else, only to myself. I am now at 132 (this morning), which isn't bad for a 39 year-old woman. The plan is drop a couple more pounds AND get much stronger through weight training and aerobic excercise, and then I will be a hot middle-aged lady.

    You want me to be real about this? OK, here's real. I couldn't get a second look from any man that I found attractive at 185, or at 160. I met and got engaged to my fiance (he's white) at 139 lbs., and he is someone that almost all women find attractive, including me. I still have the same winning personality, the same great smile, the same intelligence, etc. but it's in a much better wrapper now, and thank god for that, since that better wrapper made him stick around for a while after he first met me and find out about all of that other good stuff. That is what is real.

  • sisterlocgirl

    Well. . .this fat acceptance notion is leading many aaw to early graves. I think a better way to look at the situation is to look at your muscle-fat ratio or body composition. Too many folks get hung up on the number on the scale rather than true fitness or health. That being said, you know a fat roll from a curve. I heartily recommend working out at home because that way you can work out in rollers in the rattiest stuff you have and still reap the benefits. Some days my workout gear scares even me, but I get that workout in doggone it lol. Just understand ladies abdominal fat is metabolically active in a very BAD way that can lead to diabetes, heart attacks, strokes and cancers. Are you still willing to make excuses when you have to shell out an extra $5-6,000 a year to treat your diabetes? And that's just ONE disease. Diabetes and hypertension tend to travel together, so calculate the cost of denial and get to work. Either you can add exercise and healthier diet choices to your life or play Russian roulette and hope you don't have the heart attack, stroke, end up on dialysis three times a week or in the graveyard before your time. Trust me, I see this scenario play out every day on my job ( kidney doctor ). I'm just saying. . .food for thought.

  • Eugenia

    Faith, I'm a lurker but I decided to comment. Good advice, this not only good to find a mate but just good for bw in particular. Heart disease is a killer of bw and that goes with being overweight. I say just don't diet, staying a healthy weight is a lifestyle change, I remember I asked my doctor about it and that's what she said if you're going to lose weight and keep it off, you have to change your lifestyle. Diets don't work or they only work to a certain point, you can keep a balanced, healthy diet and exercise and you don't have to exercise a lot, then it becomes second nature. I also say if you exercise, do something you like and then stick with it. I can't run bad knee, but I can bike like a fool and I do, I also dance and roller skate, all things I love. Also I just wanted to mention that some bw are suffering from depression which can affect weight enormously if you are, seek some professional help. At the end of my marriage I was I from suffered panic, anxiety and depression and packed on some pounds. I'm 5'8" and my highest weght was 203 lbs, yea I was fat but when I separated from my husband and got the help I needed, I dropped 23 lbs, I got about 15 more to lose and I'll be comfortable in my skin and also in my wedding dress. My fiancee loves me like I am, he thinks I'm fine but I don't think I'm fine and I have type 1 diabetes so being overweight could be terminal for me, for sure so I want to lose the rest.

    Good luck to the ladies, challenging their weight and changing their lives and romantic outcome.

  • Evia Moore

    Faith, the answer is YES,YES, YES, excess weight reduces the number of suitors a black woman has if she's trying to date IR. With all other things being equal or almost equal, the probability of any woman attracting more suitors or more DESIRABLE and Quality loving and lovable (QLL) men increases as her weight decreases.

    As a matter of fact, I think this would be a great time RIGHT NOW for AA women who could slim down to capitalize on the typical American man's attraction to slimmer women BECAUSE so many non-black women are overweight in this country. Black women--who have naturally high definition curves anyway, could clean up out there if those curves weren't hiding under the excess weight. This is a winning strategy that black women could implement NOW that would give many of them the edge in the mating market.

    • Neecy

      yes Evia,

      i also believe this is why White American women especially have this push to promote overweight AA women in the media. As long as we stay fat and outta shape, we can't and won't compete with them for men.

      That's why I give that whole "embrace your curves" movement the side eye. Its really trying to keep AA women in "place".

      • Faith

        I had to reply to this comment separately. I will say though that two fat-acceptance/body image for all sizes go-to women in the media are white. One in particularly did not seem to be trying to focus on BW and I think it's because they want to have certain WW fill that role should a tiny space be created, not BW.

        The negative portrayals of overweight BW with the loud comics and the family horror dysfunction stories are a separate agenda.

      • Pam in FL

        You know, Neecy, I also feel like that on a lot of days. I can't prove nothin', but it just seems awfully coincidental that showing fat black women over and over again really does work to the greater goal of reducing competition for white women regarding the target goal of white men. Just sayin'…

    • ARLYNE

      Thank you. I keep telling my single BF's to take advantage of the full mouth and round behind beauty standard. BW are the "new kids on the block" of IR dating. Many non-BM will be curious. Smart BW will work that exotic beauty, date/vet quality men and obtain the marriage of their dreams.

  • Neecy

    Point Blank men AND women want healtnhy fit attrative looking partners. i am overweight with an attractive face and great personality and while i may find someone to "love me for me" i am not ok with settling with that thought. I want someone to really feel good about me as their partner, be attracted and such. Frankkly, i don't want to date an overweight out of shape unhealthy looking man, so I don't expect men or anyone else for that matter to want to either.

    While I am still very attractive, i feel i could look waaaay better if I lost the weight I needed to to look healthy and fit again.

    This whole "love your curves" moevement irks me b/c IMO it encourages BW to stay complacent about their obesity. The word "curves" is thrown around so loosley these days, anyone can claim they are "curvy" when they are either boney boy bodied shaped or obese. obesity is not CURVES people. Its fat rolls. too many BW are being hoodwinked into their own sabotage. Being overweight myself, i don't even buy that crap. Curves are curves, fat rolls are fat rolls. PERIOD. No healthy fit attractive male wants an overweight obese woman of ANY color.

    We BW need to understand this -- especially crossing the color lines.

    I am not going to starve myself or get myself to an unhealthy weight to appeal to twisted men. We all have varying degrees of what weight and size is best for us -- we need to find it and work towards that goal. But I do and will get myself to an attractive state where my body looks and feels good.

    We all know what is considered attractive weight and what isn't. BW need to stop tip toeing the line about this. The word and term "thick" has gotten out of hand. it used to be women who were fit but curvy in the right places. Nowadays too many BW throw the term "thick" around to loosley as well.

    BW when in shape have some of the best most feminine bodies around IMO. We have the perfect amount of booty, boobs etc. But that stuff gets out of hand when we let ourselves go. trist me, I am one of them. Underneath all of this flesh is a hot arsed body. How do i know? i once had it.

    Sistas we need to stop asking questions we already know the answer to. If you are overweight, you need to undrestand it does hinder you in the dating and mating dept. Not ot mention your health is at risk.

    Stop aiming for thick, start aiming for what you know without a doubt is FIT and attractive without fat rolls.

    • Liza207

      Neecy,

      On point as always. Just stay focused on your goal and you'll be where you want to be. I highly recommend the South Beach Diet. It's awesome! I too get tired of fat women referring to themselves as thick, curvy,voluptuous and BBW. I refused to use any of these euphemisms to describe myself. I was fat/obese, period. I was a size 22 and I am now a size 12 (my goal is to be a size 10,that's realistic for my body type). I'm not exactly thin but I'm fit and in shape due to working out at the gym 3 to 4 days a week and eating right. As BW, we really need to stop the madness, get real and take better care of ourselves/appearance.

      In terms of finding a mate, we should be on our A-game not just appearance wise but our minds should also on point as well- be confident/self-assured. I love good-looking men who are fit and in good shape. I'm not asking for anything physically in a man that I'm not bringing to table myself. In my opinion, if you want a certain kind/type of man you should be or become that to attract who you want.

      To the reading audience:

      The follow rant, is a little pet peeve of mine. I apologize in advance.

      I'm so tired of hearing that men are visual creatures. As women, we need to be honest. We care about looks just as much as men do but since we live in patriarchal society, we aren't allowed to honest about this. So, men can come up with laundry lists of what they want women to look like in order to attract their attention with them giving absolutely no thought to how they should look when attempting get those women. If you're a man who is a 4 why would you think women who are 8s, 9s and 10s should give you the time of day and when you're rebuffed, then have the nerve to become offended. How?!!! Sorry again. Rant over.

      • Neecy

        Liza

        Thanks for the encouragement. I have to admit, I have wasted a few years being delusional. Its never too late but i surely wish I would have had this frame of thought more than a few years ago. oh well.. I'm still optomistic about where I am going.

        And ITA. i get so sick of hearing about men are visual creatures and women just want a well off man. WOMEN are visual creatures as well! If I were back at my normal healthy attractive weight, I would not be with a man who was not physically appealing to me. And hell even with me being overweight i can admit I am not even attracted to overweight men (this is not saying I expect to be with attractive fit men being at my weight), but i am just saying women are JUST AS VISUAL as men.

        I cringe at what some women put up with for the sake of having a "well off" partner. There is not enough money in the world to make me want to wake up next to a repulsive man I am not attracted to.

        I remember when I was doing online dating some years ago, i would not respond to emails of men who did not have photos. i also found myself scanning the pics FIRST of the men who e-mailed me. I am not syaing this is the only thing that matters, but i started questioning myself after reading all this about how "MEN" are such visual creatures. Its like well if a woman is visual what's wrong with that?

        • We are all visual. The first thing I noticed about dh was his eyes. :)

        • Liza207

          "I cringe at what some women put up with for the sake of having a “well off” partner. There is not enough money in the world to make me want to wake up next to a repulsive man I am not attracted to."

          Oh, my god. Neecy, yes the thought of this to me is just vomit inducing. But some women are just that mercenery. Not me.

          "I remember when I was doing online dating some years ago, i would not respond to emails of men who did not have photos. i also found myself scanning the pics FIRST of the men who e-mailed me."

          I did the exactly same thing when I was online dating and I felt absolutely no guilt about it. I'm sure just about every other man/woman was doing the same thing.

          "… i started questioning myself after reading all this about how “MEN” are such visual creatures."

          What I don't understand is why women continue to co-sign on this sexist nonsense.

          "Its like well if a woman is visual what’s wrong with that?"

          What's wrong is that we're not to supposed to care about the way men look because most societies use a woman's physical appearance as a mechanism to control us and keep us down. Men fear the script being flipped on them, so they continue to brow-beat us by making us feel that we're superficial and awful somehow, if we care too much about what they look like.

          Most of the men who are always chasing after women who are way out of their league, when they do get a really attractive woman they are so insecure that they become possessive and controlling. Evetually, they end up losing the woman due to their insecurities. That's why people should date on their own attractiveness level.

          • Neecy

            Liza EXACTLY!

            Men do not want to have an 'expiration" date on their attractiveness like women so they have convinced even women to buy into the idea that women should not consider physical attraction when looking at a man. I will stay alone for the rest of my life before I go with someone who I cannot be physically attracted to. And I don't expect any man who is 'not feeling my physical" to be with me either. Why isit that women are supposed to close our eyes and act like we don't have eyeballs and vision and desires? UGH that irks me.

            And this is not about a particualr KIND of attractiveness but simple ATTRACTION. I think some people start thinking that just b/c someone says they are visual means they simply are superficial and looking soley at looks. NO, its about finding someone on your attractive level.

        • Evia Moore

          Neecy, if you don't mind, I'd like to take this discussion a bit deeper for the sake of all readers. I want readers to focus on the "well off" man, and whether he's worth trying to catch his eye or not. Now, of course, if the "well off" man looks like Brad, Denzel,Idris, or Clooney, he would be a TO DIE FOR catch for a lot of women, but suppose the well-off man is 10-30 years older or is puny looking like a young Woody Allen or Eckhart Tolle. Don't get hung up on these particular guys. Just think about the type.

          I really want bw to think about the "well-off" man (whatever "well-off" means to a particular woman) because I often read where bw discount a man's means and will say that for her, it's mainly about love or character, or the way he makes her feel. Now, I don't have a problem with a woman preferring one or all of those, but I always wonder whether these bw are saying that in order to avoid the label of "gold-digger" or whether they're being honest. I'll tell you why I wonder that.

          My husband is financially comfortable and because of that, we can take several vacations each year without straining our finances and because of his means, I don't have to work outside the home. Here's the thing: I haven't met even ONE bw offline who doesn't have a problem with me being able to go on a few vacations every year and not work. They ALL have an issue with that to some extent. These women will claim that it's all about a man's character for them, yet that's not how they act when they see a bw with a man who has means. IF these bw actually DO prefer love, a man's character, the way he makes her feel, etc. and have other noble preferences, then why do they get bent out of shape when they encounter a bw living well. The fact is that living well takes MONEY in this country. And no one can pay for the cruise with character, love, and the way he makes you feel.

          The main reason I'm putting this out here is that I've learned that we are most likely going to get what we ask for--not what we "pretend" to ask for. So I always put a lot of thought into what I ask for because I know I'm going to get it. LOL! And I certainly don't plan to end up getting what someone else has shamed or coerced me into asking for.

          Faith did an article about wm choosing Asian women as trophy wives. The Asian women I've seen with wm in the media or in my offline life are almost always with plain looking wm or old(er)wm, BUT these men tend to be educated and have means of some sort. SOME of these men are obviously quite a bit older than these women (think Rupert Murdoch and Wendy Deng)and they don't seem to be dripping with charming, winning personalities. Yet, these women are married to these men or are his significant other (think Mark Zuckerberg, Eckhart Tolle, etc.) Yet Asian women are often presented as women who bw should imitate in the relationship realm. Obviously many young AA women would have a real problem dating an elderly wm or either a man who looks like Mark or Eckhart. Many if not most would REFUSE to date these men. The question is: Are AA women ready to do what Asian women do. Are the bulk of AA women--who say they want to date IR--being realistic?

          So, I just want bw to really think a bit more about this. If any reader here wouldn't be attracted to men of this sort, then why do you think imitating Asian women is often suggested to bw? And if a man's means is not important to so many bw, then why do so many of them obviously have an issue with a bw who does date/marry a well-off wm? No one needs to answer. These are just questions for thought.

          • MsMellody

            Thank you Evia for articulating this key issue.

            More BW need to take a serious look at what they want and need. Sometimes the two are mixed up..and the BW ends up with a "looker" who is NOT A PRODUCER.

            Living well does INDEED entail having financial means/ being well off and it is true BW need to take a page from the Asian woman play book. They could really care the least bit about how a man "looks" visually..if this same so called "plain" looking man will provide homes, healthcare, car, the ability for the Asian wife to stay at home and raise their children..then the Asian woman will NOT HESITATE. And like you have always pointed out BW need to make this their imperative -- make THEIR NEEDS their primary focus.

      • Evia Moore

        Neecy, if you or any other woman is a visual creature, there's nothing wrong with that. We'll all unique in our tastes.

        I think SOME women are much more of a visual creature than others. I think that there should be allowances for some of us to be one way and for some of us to be another way and at all points in between. In other words, there is a wide range that can be found in anything. We don't all have to like the same thing. We are INDIVIDUALS. For ex., I'm NOT one of those visual creature women. A man can have perfect looks and the buff body, but if he's not a productive man and can't bring a variety of goodies to my table, I'm not attracted to him at all, if I'm looking for a Quality partner.

        If I'm interested in ONLY a fling, then that's different. I might be interested in those stunning good looks even if he only has an IQ of 2--as long as he has the required "skills." LOL! In general, throughout the world, men are mainly judged by the bulk of women based on what they can PRODUCE, except for with MOST AA (and similar) women. Well, we know that among AAs, the roles are switched: the women have to PRODUCE and look good, whereas the men simply have to show up.

        I've been with some good looking guys of various ethnicites and races in my life and I personally don't see where they bring anything more than the average looking guys.

        Now, this is from a woman with a few decades on her, but I believe that if a not so attractive man treats a woman like she's special, then over time, that man begins to look real good to her. LOL! And if a gorgeous man treats a woman like a mangy dog, I don't think he'll look good to her after a while.

        I prefer men who work out and have a fitness lifestyle because that's the type of mindset and lifestyle I've always had, so I more than likely wouldn't be with a man who didn't have a similar mindset/lifestyle. I have never dated or been with an overweight man for this reason. I prefer men with slim, wiry physiques or average builds.

        • Neecy

          Hi Evia,

          let me be clear. When I say I am a visual creature I mean I am not willing to be with someone I am NOT physically attracted to. this is not about being with a "hot man" or any other kind of superficial stuff. This is what varies among women and people b/c what someone considers physically attractive for them may not be for another person. This doesn't mean i have some "standard" look that I go for. I am not looking for a particular kind of attractiveness -- just attraction.

          There is nothing wrong with that. Too many times women are made to feel bad b/c we say we too want an attractive mate. Its accepted that women should settle down with men who they may not be physically attracted to b/c they have money, class and education. i don't think that is a right message and I believe its sexist. Every human being has a right to be with someone who is as equally attractive than they are and also has a right to want to feel a physical as well as mental connection with their partner.

          those people who just place emphasis on looks are not going to make out in the long run. Neither will the people who place emphasis on simply a mans bank account. I believe there are a number of factors that go into a very compatible long lasting relationship. Attraction ON BOTH SIDES is key IMO.

          • Lisa99

            This is one of those issues where I see both sides… people should be attracted to their partners and not wake up in a cold sweat when they look at the person lying there next to him or her… I don't care how nice a man is, I don't want to feel repulsed when he tries to kiss me. ;)

            That being said, I think the problem is that people make this judgment WAY too quickly. If a man/woman doesn't turn them on physically by the first or second date or create that "connection" almost immediately, people are ready to move on. This is the part in which I agree with Evia and say that such judgments (especially by women) need not be made so quickly. I do believe (from personal experience) that a man can grow in attractiveness to a woman based on how he treats her if she is open to the possibility.

            Now, sometimes it will never happen, and that's okay. The woman shouldn't force it. But a man should be given a fair chance. If the initial perception is that the guy is just "okay," go out with him again. Only if he completely turns you off (and he'd have to be horribly oogly/out of shape/have bad breath and teeth to do that) then should you move on immediately.

            I know I used to look back and think of a nice guy who was probably pretty cute who I dismissed after one date because he was just "okay" to me. Shorter than I like and a slight build. But looking back, I was being ridiculous. So he was 5'7" and not 6'1" — I'm only 5'4" myself! So he wasn't built — he wasn't scrawny either! He was a perfectly average looking guy (I don't mean that in a bad way) and had lots of potential to become more attractive to me because of his great personality and kind ways. He was obviously marriage-minded because he got married not long after that and he and his wife have a baby girl.

            Let's just say I didn't make that mistake again with a future date who just came off as "okay" at first. ;)

            Last thing… this is another area where BW in particular shoot themselves in the foot in terms of dating WM in particular. We've all heard many a BW say that if she dated a WM, he better be "fine" like George Clooney, Brad Pitt (or whoever the younger versions of these guys are). But they're not necessarily dating the BM equivalent of Brad/George — the Denzels/Idrises/Shemars/etc. They are dating average BM… some that might be losing their hair a bit, some that might have a pudgy belly (not obese, just a few pounds they could stand to lose). And that's perfectly fine… no human being is flawless.

            But don't let a BW date the WM who's slightly balding, slightly pudgy, slightly nerdy… oh no, all heck will break loose with folks completely ignoring the fact that he might be a "good man" (as they'd say if she was dating an average BM), but it's all about her dating some ugly WM. And he's probably not even ugly, but the standard seems to go that average BM = decent looking BM, while average WM = ugly WM.

            Even on these BWE boards, I've found it somewhat amusing that a few posters who complain that they don't get WM asking them out or approaching them will then get upset that they don't see more "fine" WM with BW and that the WM they see with BW are not attractive.

            Personally, I'm not concerned about the looks of two people in a relationship. As long as they are happy with each other and as long as they find each other attractive, then I'm happy. Really, my opinion on it is completely irrelevant, and I do think a number BW who want to date IR but have extra physical standards for a potential IR mate need to examine why they feel that way.

          • Liza207

            "This is one of those issues where I see both sides… people should be attracted to their partners and not wake up in a cold sweat when they look at the person lying there next to him or her… I don’t care how nice a man is, I don’t want to feel repulsed when he tries to kiss me."

            Lisa99,

            Yes, why should you be with a guy because he is nice when you're not attracted him. I bet you will find very few men out there who will date a woman he wasn't attracted to just because she's. Yeah, he might have a one-night-stand with her, if she makes herself available. I'm so sick and tired of the double the standards.

            I don't think anyone here was saying that they only wanted to date good-looking men who were broke. I have never dated a loser of any race. Yeah, believe it or not but there are good-looking men of means. I've dated a few and some of them can actually be decent and treat you well, too (gasp). Why can't you have both? He doesn't have to be perfect looking but there has to be an attraction. I just hate the negative preconceived notions automatically applied to good-looking men/women.

            Also, I don't need a man in order to have a good/nice life because I've been able to provide that for myself (and don't pay any man's way either). And not because I'm playing the Strong BW role here. It's because it gives me the freedom to choose who I want to be with, without me having to need to be the with them. But, at the same time, I don't have a problem and I really don't judge women who do look to men for that.

      • Faith

        Haha! I am very visual. As some have accused us of only wanting a Brad Pitt type then I say, "yes please". Well…not him but you get the point. A better than average type.

        • http://foreverloyal.wordpress.com/2010/11/09/wait

          I used to say, I think way back in high school, that a guy needed to have "a face I could marry". That for me meant not necessarily model handsome. More like average with a notable feature, usually a winning smile or a twinkle in the eye. Examples of this would be a young John Mellencamp or Billy Joel.

          The fact is, just like there are only so many model-gorgeous women and every man will not have one, there are only so many model-gorgeous men.

          Lisa's point that bw who feel they must only date model-gorgeous wm is well-taken. I think that SOME of them are trying to prove something. SOME others of them are simply erecting barriers to prevent themselves from IR dating.

        • Evia Moore

          Faith, it seems that this is almost a separate topic, LOL!--but not really because everything is connected in the mating realm. And Faith, there is nothing that a broke, goodlooking man can do for me but show me where I can find a man with means. LOL! So, my perspective may have something to do to my age to an extent. I can remember when I was 18. My girlfriends and I were always on the lookout for the cute guys. LOL!

          Great points, MsMellody, Lisa99, and foreverloyal. It's definite that most bw would never date most of the wm that ww and aw date and marry. And yes, MsMellody, aw certainly want a man with some $$$ and I do TOO! Some bw really have problems with the way the average wm looks. This is exactly the reason why so many wm can't believe that bw are open to dating them. Men KNOW when women are interested in them.

          Most people are average looking, so if a typical bw is going to restrict her interest in wm to the top 10% of wm in terms of looks, she may as well say she's not interested in wm because she has already eliminated 90% of them. What are her chances realistically of snagging a Clooney or almost-Clooney. What irks me about all of this too is that the very same bw who won't date an average looking wm will then turn around and go sround broadcasting that wm won't step to bw or that wm prefer aw, hw, or ww. LOL! So ITA, Liza99, here is another example of bw shooting themselves in the foot. That's an excellent point. And they will regret it one day.

          I have two girlfriends who refused to date wm who were average looking. These women are now pushing 50. One of the guys was well-off and well-educated, generous of his time with her and her son, and was willing to accept her 8-year old son, but she didn't like the way the guy looked. Neither of these women have been out with a man in almost a decade now. One of them constantly tries to get me to go on trips and to concerts with her, but I'm MARRIED. She wants someone to do things with, but I don't need her as a partner.

          A man is evaluated on the basis of what he PRODUCES because a man must PRODUCE in order to fulfill his role as provider and protector. And yes, Foreverloyal, I too believe that some bw are erecting barriers to avoid IR dating by coming up with sky high criteria for wm. If a man is even a bit below average to average in terms of looks and body build, but is clean, well groomed, a reasonably good provider and protector, is faithful and committed to her and the family, and treats a woman like he loves, cherishes and adores her 95% of the time, this is the type of man that the typical, matureminded non-bw marries.

          I think the general consensus would be that Darren is above average looking for a wm his age, but even if he'd been a few levels below in terms of looks, I would have still been very interested because he's a QLL man. Some bw I know have made veiled comments about how they would want a taller, beefier man if they were going to be with a wm. Smh I realize that a LOT of bw are still trying to find themselves a BUCK.

          I happen to love Darren's slim, wiry build and he's about 2-3 inches taller than me. More importantly, he's very virile and performs his role as a man very well. He makes me feel very safe and secure with him at all times. I tell ya, even if a Tsunami were to hit our area, I think he'd figure out a way for us to survive. LOL! Everybody else in the area might get washed away, but he'd make sure we didn't. But if y'all were to meet him, the first couple of times you're around him, you'd NEVER think he's the man I'm describing. So, Liza99, I agree with that point too that you made, some bw don't give wm a fair chance.

          Anyway, a lot of bw need to really think about this and be straight up honest with themselves. If they really don't want to go the IR route, no one is forcing them. They really shouldn't be wasting their time dabbling with IRs. Their time could be much better spent in other ways.

          • It occurrs to me after reading your latest blog--SOME bw are probably actually AFRAID to date a less-than-model WM. Why? Because they are AFRAID of what some other black people will SAY about them. ( "Oh, she at least should have gotten an attractive one." "you never see attractive WM with Bw") etc. etc.)

            How sad.

          • Neecy

            Evia,

            i am sorry but you have just taken some simple words and turned this into a whole issue about BW needing to focus not on looks. NO ONE HERE said anything about not looking for a man of means. All we said was that people need to be ATTRACTED to their mates. PERIOD. END OF STORY. its perfectly fine, normal and realistic for ANY WOMAN to want a man that she is attracted to.

            Why are you going off on this tangent? No one here has suggested that BW should focus on looks. Its not even about looks its about ATTRACTION. that can encompass many things beyond looks and a mans wallett.

            Would you Evia be willing to date or marry a fat out of shape balding man b/c he had a good job and could take care of you? being that you stated you would not date a man that did not share the same desire to exercise and eat healthy?

            i really don't appreciate you trying to turn this into some superficial thing. You have completely taken the wrong approach to what Liza and I were saying.

            Geez!

          • Faith

            Thanks Evia for making your points. Perhaps Brad was on my mind because I was just watching the Benjamin Button movie (and even he's not aging well like a man nearly 20 years older like Denzel). Of course shiny objects are fun to play with but the reality is a man who can achieve many things and is willing to share his bounty in supporting and protecting a wife and family is paramount. I think where some women may trip up is in thinking they've somehow settled unless they go for a sky high list of things that are not necessary, esp when it comes to IR dating. The un-indoctrination process is not complete and the lack of vetting knowledge that many women possess is at play. Why if we were all being given good advice and listened to it, what would we have to write about? Well..probably some secret discussions for world domination, but we're circling Level One.

  • You improve your odds of getting the best quality man when you are within a healthy weight range for your height. Just as dating should not be a charitable endeavor for you http://foreverloyal.wordpress.com/2009/09/08/dati… trust and believe it is not a charitable endeavor for that pool of quality men in which you aim to fish.

    A man is going to get the most attractive compatible woman he can. So yes, your razor-sharp wit, love for hearth and home, and sweet disposition is important. But so is the size of your waist, the glow of your skin and the whiteness of your teeth.

    • Viv

      I agree, foreverloyal. While I'm not on Facebook, this post and your response have given me the gist of the conversation. Our need to take better care of ourselves cannot be overstated-its implications go beyond dating, it's all part of our need to live better overall.

      I just ran the NY Marathon a few weeks ago (my first!), and at 5'10, 190lbs, I am still considered "thick", but that's 12 lbs lighter than I was before and I feel stronger and healthier than ever. The hard work, discipline and commitment I put into training was not easy, but knowing the amazing sense of accomplishment I felt at finishing the race, I know that applying these qualities to every aspect of my life-my marriage, my job, my friends and family, my health-will always serve me well. I plan to continue working out and eating sensibly, with the goal of losing even more weight. I know it's possible.

    • Faith

      foreverloyal: Dating is not charity! We are not charity cases either. So we need to make sure we're not being treated like one whether we date inter-racially or not.

      Viv: Congrats on the marathon. I haven't achieved that but I am also making appearance/health improvements and I notice the difference. A little bit of exercise a day does go far in helping achieve long-range goals. I think we could look at training for a marathon as a model for making changes across the board. I think I have a new idea for a blog post!

      Neecy: Yes we do know but many of us just don't want to face it because it's like added 10 bricks on top of all the indoctrination. Yet addressing it will removed about 30 bricks of that burden mentally before any physical change even kicks in and when it does the feeling of encouragement is awesome.

      Evia: I agree! Maybe the idea of BW getting rid of unnecessary weight needs to be marketed as a competition. Pay back the ancestors of your ancestors former slave owners by taking all the wealth back! It sounds kinda twisted but the thinking of so many BW is warped anyway maybe it will cancel it all out in the end. --Don't take this seriously anyone reading this reply!

  • [...] behind they may still have to work out their navigation into new territories. So when some asked, How Big Is Too Big When It Comes to Interracial Dating it was with trepidation. Being tied to the old model will not work in this new era. There’s no [...]